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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 367861" data-attributes="member: 2020">A couple of comments.  Kid Charlemagne has it right - the orcs did come after the party, and very quickly too.  Unless they climbed those dwarven light shafts (in the film version, they probably could!) they must have put up a temporary bridge pretty fast.  Gollum got to the party even before the orcs, if I remember rightly.  He didn't run right up to them, of course, but he got close enough that Frodo heard him.  (Actually, he almost did run right up to them, in that tree, but that is beside the point. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  )  - - -  What Celeborn said to the Fellowship made me VERY angry when I first read it, back in 1976, and it still angers me now.  Most CERTAINLY that statement shows that Celeborn, aside from not being one of the Wise, is an idiot.  He says, to paraphrase:  Had I known the dwarves had reawakened this evil in Moria, I would not have allowed you to pass our Northern Borders.  Ok, scratch Gandalf's plans (which obviously included a stay in Lothlorien.)  Scratch Elrond's plans too, for he intended them the chance to stay in Moria.  Scratch Aragorn's plans, for HE intended this, I believe, the moment they determined to go through Moria.  Oh, and scratch Middle Earth while you're at it.  For if the party isn't allowed into Lothlorien, they are pinned against it as the orcs swarm across Dimril Dale.  Of course, if the party is thus pinned, they have to fight or flee (and flee, to where, exactly?)  If they fight, the orcs KILL them, and then the Ring ... oh my ... the Ring falls into the hands of the orcs, and of course Sauron retakes what is his, and ... then Sauron burns Lothlorien to the ground, and kills every elf in it, including Celeborn.  Perhaps Celeborn meant only Gimli?  YOU (Gimli) would not have been allowed to pass our Northern Borders.  How nice!  Nothing like leaving Gimli to die as the orcs overrun Dimril Dale, catch him, and do what orcs do best.  Or perhaps they keep him a prisoner on the northern borders, in the trees?  This is a pleasant way to treat an honored friend of:  Elrond, Gandalf, Thranduil, Dain, and Brand.  This is a good way of furthering pleasant relationships between the nations ... and not starting another war between elves and dwarves.  NOT.  Furthermore, was the Fellowship going to leave Gimli behind?  Perhaps if he had only been imprisoned, yes.  And perhaps not.  Certainly, it would have made a serious difference in how Frodo reacted to Galadriel, later on, and in that change to his reaction would have come a change to the fate of all of Middle Earth, for the meeting of Frodo and Galadriel was CRUCIAL to the story.  - - -  Remember that Celeborn does not have the excuse of Doriath (neither does Thranduil, but nevermind that.)  Durin's folk were never involved in that fiasco, and they did what they could to talk the dwarves of Nogrod out of it.    Furthermore, that was 6,000 years ago, and - although I think everyone has the right to carry on a vendetta - don't you think carrying on a vendetta for 6,000 years is a bit much?  - - -  When the dwarves of Khazad-Dum awakened the balrog, it made War against them.  Apparently, the dwarves were better armed and armored then, and certainly were in great number, for they fought back, and it took the balrog several months and 2 dwarven kings before it drove the dwarves from Khazad-Dum (which was immediately renamed Moria, the Black Pit.)  The news reached Lothlorien quickly.  I do not know exactly who brought the news, be it a dwarf, man, eagle, or elf (or even one of the hobbits still living by the River), but I do know the consequences.  Moria's East Gate is VERY close to Northern Lothlorien, and as the balrog runs it was about 5 minutes away (if you doubt this, remember that balrogs took only a couple of hours, at the most, to run all the way from Angband to the coast, to rescue Morgoth from Ungoliant.)  Queen Nimrodel of Lothlorien, terrified that the balrog would make that 5 minute journey, fled, along with a great part of the people of the Golden Wood.  King Amroth arranged to meet her in Gondor, and they both ended up dead or lost somewhere at Sea.  Lothlorien would have been deserted, but Galadriel stepped in, with her Noldorian might, and the remaining elves stayed, and fortified their homeland.  Northern Lothlorien remained deserted, however, from that point on.  Now yes, that would be a reason for Celeborn to be angry.  But not so good a reason as to dis Gimli like he did.  Galadriel, acting as the Noldor that she was, crossed her own husband, and welcomed Gimli, and in so doing turned a gaping, bleeding wound, into healing and friendship (and later, into love.)  I guess that is why they call the Noldor the High Elves.</blockquote>

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