Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
A Shield spell that Scales
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 8136840" data-attributes="member: 72555"><p>A few issues.</p><p></p><p>So shield spell at high levels is a ridiculously efficient 1st level spell slot.</p><p></p><p>Enemy number of attacks and damage scale, but the cost of negating them does not.</p><p></p><p>On a character building for high AC AC, having access to shield spell and even a modest number of low level slots is ridiculously strong. Nothing but a critical hit can penetrate it.</p><p></p><p>The shield spell basically <strong>breaks</strong> bounded accuracy when stacked with other high-AC build choices.</p><p></p><p>Keeping the shield spell up against every attack costs you 1 spell slot (of any level) per round.</p><p></p><p>Dipping a class that grants shield (hexblade, wizard, sorcerer, some artificers) becomes part of "I cannot be hit" builds, and arguing that shield is always up is very plausible.</p><p></p><p>At low levels, meanwhile, shield is a decent spell, if expensive. Staying alive is often worth burning 1/2 of your daily spells at level 1.</p><p></p><p>So I think, at high levels, burning a 1st level slot and a reaction for +5 to AC against all attacks is overly strong.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>I have seen DMs, when confronted with a moderate-to-high AC character who has shield, ending up resorting to ATK-inflation. Monsters start having higher ATK modifiers, just so that they can land a blow ever. This results in an AC arms race in the party, as anyone who doesn't have insane AC becomes auto-hit just so the DM can sometimes land blows on the insane-AC-plus-shield character.</p><p></p><p>So fixing shield so it is less "always on" has value (or at least making it cost more!)</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>The next issue is that builds who dip hexblade get a better deal than hexblades at using shield. Shield doesn't care what slot your spell is at all. A hexblade 2 is just as good at using the shield spell as a hexblade 10; and a caster MC hexblade who stops at level 1 is probably smart.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Adding these up, making a shield spell that is about as good for low level PCs, but at high levels you'll have to scale the spell slot used, could help.</p><p></p><p>Burning a 1st level slot on shield is still strong -- you get to negate the attack, and the next attack is more likely to miss, and even if it does hit, you take half damage. But it isn't the virtual immunity (on high AC builds) that the prior shield spell grants.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>The "resistance to damage from attacks" is a cherry. You can cast shield even if it won't help (like against a critical hit) you get missed, but you halve the damage. This is a life saver compared to the default shield, and (I hope) helps make the change feel less nerfy.</p><p></p><p>For low-HP low-AC casters (for whom the spell is reasonable), this probably makes the spell better. They are more likely to experience "even a shield cast won't help you".</p><p></p><p>For shield-casting tanks, this makes it less "I am immune to attacks" and more "I can negate a select number of attacks". And can use it to blunt critical hits, which has value.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>Suppose you have an enemy that needs a 15+ to hit the "tank" with shield, and a 10+ to hit a normal caster.</p><p></p><p>Normal shield makes the "tank" get hit only on a 20, and the caster on a 15+. They both have a 1/4 chance per attack for the shield spell to be useful (hit, but by less than 5).</p><p></p><p>If crits are 2x damage (close enough), then old-shield reduced damage to the tank by 71% (from 5/20 hits 1/20 crits, to 1/20 crits, is 5/7th of incoming damage negated), and to the caster by 42% (from 10/20 hits 1/20 crits to 5/20 hits 1/20 crits is 5/12 damage negated). Both burn about 0.7 slots/round against 4 attacks/round, but the tank gets a much much better ROI.</p><p></p><p>New-shield, using a slot high enough to defend against all attacks remaining, reduce the damage on the tank by 86% and the caster by 73%. But instead of 1st level slots, you are sometimes burning 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even higher level slots (depending on number of expected attacks before your next turn).</p><p></p><p>(The caster using the higher level slots gets resistance against the follow-up hits; the tank only gets to mitigate crits with the new version of shield).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="NotAYakk, post: 8136840, member: 72555"] A few issues. So shield spell at high levels is a ridiculously efficient 1st level spell slot. Enemy number of attacks and damage scale, but the cost of negating them does not. On a character building for high AC AC, having access to shield spell and even a modest number of low level slots is ridiculously strong. Nothing but a critical hit can penetrate it. The shield spell basically [B]breaks[/B] bounded accuracy when stacked with other high-AC build choices. Keeping the shield spell up against every attack costs you 1 spell slot (of any level) per round. Dipping a class that grants shield (hexblade, wizard, sorcerer, some artificers) becomes part of "I cannot be hit" builds, and arguing that shield is always up is very plausible. At low levels, meanwhile, shield is a decent spell, if expensive. Staying alive is often worth burning 1/2 of your daily spells at level 1. So I think, at high levels, burning a 1st level slot and a reaction for +5 to AC against all attacks is overly strong. --- I have seen DMs, when confronted with a moderate-to-high AC character who has shield, ending up resorting to ATK-inflation. Monsters start having higher ATK modifiers, just so that they can land a blow ever. This results in an AC arms race in the party, as anyone who doesn't have insane AC becomes auto-hit just so the DM can sometimes land blows on the insane-AC-plus-shield character. So fixing shield so it is less "always on" has value (or at least making it cost more!) --- The next issue is that builds who dip hexblade get a better deal than hexblades at using shield. Shield doesn't care what slot your spell is at all. A hexblade 2 is just as good at using the shield spell as a hexblade 10; and a caster MC hexblade who stops at level 1 is probably smart. --- Adding these up, making a shield spell that is about as good for low level PCs, but at high levels you'll have to scale the spell slot used, could help. Burning a 1st level slot on shield is still strong -- you get to negate the attack, and the next attack is more likely to miss, and even if it does hit, you take half damage. But it isn't the virtual immunity (on high AC builds) that the prior shield spell grants. --- The "resistance to damage from attacks" is a cherry. You can cast shield even if it won't help (like against a critical hit) you get missed, but you halve the damage. This is a life saver compared to the default shield, and (I hope) helps make the change feel less nerfy. For low-HP low-AC casters (for whom the spell is reasonable), this probably makes the spell better. They are more likely to experience "even a shield cast won't help you". For shield-casting tanks, this makes it less "I am immune to attacks" and more "I can negate a select number of attacks". And can use it to blunt critical hits, which has value. --- Suppose you have an enemy that needs a 15+ to hit the "tank" with shield, and a 10+ to hit a normal caster. Normal shield makes the "tank" get hit only on a 20, and the caster on a 15+. They both have a 1/4 chance per attack for the shield spell to be useful (hit, but by less than 5). If crits are 2x damage (close enough), then old-shield reduced damage to the tank by 71% (from 5/20 hits 1/20 crits, to 1/20 crits, is 5/7th of incoming damage negated), and to the caster by 42% (from 10/20 hits 1/20 crits to 5/20 hits 1/20 crits is 5/12 damage negated). Both burn about 0.7 slots/round against 4 attacks/round, but the tank gets a much much better ROI. New-shield, using a slot high enough to defend against all attacks remaining, reduce the damage on the tank by 86% and the caster by 73%. But instead of 1st level slots, you are sometimes burning 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even higher level slots (depending on number of expected attacks before your next turn). (The caster using the higher level slots gets resistance against the follow-up hits; the tank only gets to mitigate crits with the new version of shield). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
A Shield spell that Scales
Top