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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Prestidigitalis" data-source="post: 5362509" data-attributes="member: 74496">It's less damage to the primary than if you used the damage bonus from Acrobat's Trick instead. That's possible.  But if you are really up there in melee with a flanking buddy, prone won't get you any more CA than you already have from flanking.  The big advantage (and not that big) would be that because the enemy is prone, it's an extra move action for them to get away.     Well, that *is* why I said suggestions were welcome!    But if he hits you, he *already* suffers the Defender's punishment.  Being pinned merely makes it more likely that he makes that decision.  The real issue is, how much extra pinned does the trick make him?Take two situations.  In the first, the Defender can attack on a shift (Fighter or Knight or -- I forget); in the second, the Defender can't.Case #1: To escape the pin, the enemy can a. shift (taking an attack from the Defender), then shift again.  Total movement = two squares, not much of an escape. b. shift adjacent to the Defender but not the Thief (taking an attack  from the Defender), then move (taking an OA from the Defender).  Escapes about 7 squares, but soaks up two attacks in the process.c. shift adjacent to the Thief but not the Defender (taking an attack  from the Defender), then move (taking an OA from the Thief).  Escapes about 7 squares, but soaks up two attacks in the process.d. move (taking an OA from both Defender and Thief) and then move again.If the Defender is a Fighter with Combat Superiority, and the OA hits, the move is only one square, and the total escape is again about 7 squares, and it soaks up two attacks in the process.Thug's Trick adds an attack to the first 3 scenarios, but none of them sound very appetizing for the enemy in the first place.  They might as well go with option d, in which case Thug's Trick does nothing.Case #2: Similar to Case #1, but with one fewer attack for scenarios a-c.  In this case, Thug's Trick tilts the field a bit more toward staying put.  But even without it, the enemy has a choice only between staying put, shifting twice with no attacks, shift+move with one OA, or move+move or move+attack with two OAs.  To summarize, for the specific task of pairing with an ally to flank and pin an enemy who doesn't like melee, it could help seal the deal.  On the other hand, a lot of creatures who don't like melee either a) have a close attack of some sort or b) have a special move to get away, like teleportation.  It would work best against those creatures who have a special move to get away, but which uses shifting to do it.So sure, that's one that I may have underestimated.  However, it is weakened a bit by the fact that the move associated with it is limited to shift 1.  So you can't move your full speed into position and then invoke it, at least not without an extra action.    Others have said the same, but I think it depends on either a) tweaking all of your powers and feats to getting CA or b) having a really good flanking partner or frequent beneficial terrain.  In my own brief stint with a Rogue, I didn't get high enough level to see much of "a" or experience much of "b" at any time.  I guess it depends on what benefit you want to carry over until your next turn.  Thug's Trick, Escape Artist's Trick and Sneak's Trick could all set up for something later, but only Thug's Trick really benefits anyone other than yourself if used after your own attack.It did.  Thanks for the input.I'd just like to reiterate -- it's not so much that any of the tricks is all that bad -- it's just that when you only get 5 of them total, there is an opportunity cost to taking one with only situational benefit or only a small benefit relative to one that is more broadly useful.</blockquote>

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