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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arrowhawk" data-source="post: 5653833" data-attributes="member: 6679551">There is no "vetoing" of spells.  The spell exists, it may even be used against you.  But the people who know the spell have gone to great lengths to keep its information preserved to few select individuals...and you aren't one of them.  You might be able to do something to get access to the spell, but you might wish you hadn't.  Once gain, restricting the access of spells is not vetoing their existence.   Just because you own a fighter plane doesn't mean you can automatically fine nuclear weapons for it.    I haven't taken anything away.  The spell exists.   Nowhere in any book does it mandate I let a Wizard have any spell they want as soon as they level.   The game is replete with direct and indirect instructions on controlling the campaign and everything that's in it.  If you can't contemplate that without calling it a house rule...fine.  It's really irrelevant to the fact that DM's are responsible for maintaining balance and as soon as you throw your hands up in the air and say I'm powerless to stop any caster from getting any spell they want...well then yes, JKaron's Tier system is probably going to bear out. Spells of the power that can change the fabric of the game are like nuclear weapons in our reality.  Every single govenment on this planet will attempt to control any nuclear weapons that it gets wind of.   You have casters running around with Greater Teleportation, people are going to notice and perceive you as a threat.  Governments are going to notice you and perceive you as a threat.   There are infinite plausible non-metagame reasons to for nations, individuals, and deities all more powerful than any PC in your campaign to control the accessibility of game breaking spells.  What I will concede is that the game does not do a good job of explicitly identifying the problems of unfettered spell casters.  The RAW certainly allow you to simply let the Sorc or even the Wizard pick any spell they want.   Even if Deities grant higher level spells to Clerics/Druids, the game doesn't really tell you to think about what spells a Deity will grant and when they are granted.  So I'm certainly not going to say DM's are doing it wrong with regards to RAW...but I would argue you are doing it wrong with regards to the spirit of the rules and the responsibilities imposed on DM's.   But any game in wihch the DM doesn't maintain balance...will become unwieldy.  Look, it's absolutely ridiculous that 1st level characters always seem to find dungeons with low CR encounters.    Or that a 2nd Level part never seems to get into a bar fight with a couple of lvl 19 dudes looking to have some fun.   The DM intentionallly crafts the world to fit the characters that are in it.  There's no reason to abandon this responsibility when it comes to magic, specifically spells.   Do you think the game intended for characters to always be able to buy any magic item once they have the money for it and find a major city that can have it? My ultimate point is to tell any DM who reads the Tier system and says OMG911BBQ!!! Monks or Fighters are crap, to understand that the ranking system is invalid if the assumptions that it is based on are invalid i.e. casters with unfettered access to spells and components.   Whether you want to label that as a House Rule...is irrelevant.  DM's can control it with plausible in-game reasons. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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