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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GreyLord" data-source="post: 5654068" data-attributes="member: 4348">Good thought.  Depends.If it's a spellcaster who's been memorizing spells and using them to be a better fighter then the fighter?  Probably quite a bit more then the spellcaster who's out of spells.  It's the spellcaster who's been doing all that fighting instead of using the resources otherwise.If it's been a fairshare...probably still more than the spellcaster on average, which would still probably be more than enough to take the spellcaster down.However, IF the group actually played like a Roleplaying group and people teamed together and worked together as a team...The fighter has probably been taking the bruteload of the hits, and would be dead except for the healing he's recieved...while the casters stayed back and did other things like either buff the party or use spells that did other things then make them fighters...In which case the fighter could very well have far less then the spellcasters and the spellcasters may even be near their max or at their full Hit Points.In which case if for some bizarro reason they decided to hit each other (afterall in the last scenario they've been working together, why they'd start whacking at each other would be a mystery) the fighter would have to hope that his higher BAB and Attacks would be able to deal with the spellcaster who has a lower BAB, attacks, but full HP and perhaps one or two spells left...one of which could be lethal instantly to the fighter.I'd say a Fighter brings a lot that most discount.  Most warriors do.  Though many despise the MMORPG idea, the Fighter is the Tank, they absorb the damage that most spellcasters cannot.  The one that could, the Cleric, actually can replicate the fighter's abilities for a few battles, but if they spend all their abilities to do that, they are useless overall in relation to the rest of the party.  A selfish cleric really helps no one.  However, due to their armor they can wear by class, as well as a nice HP (not as nice as the fighter, but nice), the Cleric can be a better fighter than a fighter for a few fights.  HOWEVER, after those few fights, the Cleric's out of spells, whilst the fighter still can keep on ticking.  That's the Fighter's strength, to be able to keep going...and going...and going naturally without the fear of running out of spells.A druid can also be useful, but I'd put the Cleric over the Druid overall (many would disagree).  It could be reasoned logically that a HELPFUL Cleric brings more to the party than anyone else, but a Cleric that focuses on being a fighter or trying to be a better fighter than the fighter, in an extended dungeon (where you don't have the wimpy...we fight one encounter and then are done for the day...aka...six minute day...) is absolutely useless to the party in general.  No one wants to really party with that Cleric since he tries to steal the limelight, runs out of spells whilst being selfish...and ends up really not helping anyone in the long run.  That type of Cleric probably brings the LEAST to the party...which is ironic considering what people are discussing.D&D is a TEAM dynamic game.  If you want to know who brings the most to the party, then it's who ACTUALLY BRINGS something to the party.  This is part of where 4e (I know, many hate that game, but just listen) tries to help people understand.  Classes are supposed to help that party synergy.  So, Fighters aren't just there to fight, they are there to protect others, to try to enable those spellcasters to be able to cast their spells uninterrupted and to enable the casters to survive to be the killing machines they are.  The Spellcasters are supposed to learn spell resource management, so they don't blow their entire load trying to be a fighter, but use spells selectively so that they can last that week in the dungeon where they don't get that chance to recharge...and at the same time select spells useful enough so that they can use them in any situation...INCLUDING THOSE OUTSIDE OF COMBAT.I'd take a spellcaster that is able to use their spells to figure out a puzzle and get us through it because they were smart enough to memorize the right spells anyday over some spellcaster that can buff themselves so that they can try to cut down a few goblins with their sword.  Any Fighter can mow down goblins...however no fighter can fly up and then go through a wall to pull the lever above in another room and let us continue onwards...at least not without the right equipment.So, yes, maybe the discussion isn't about group dynamics, but I think if you want to discuss which ones are useful and what they bring to the party...you absolutely HAVE to include the group dynamic and what each one brings to the party in the first place...as well as what is the best way to have everyone work together.</blockquote>

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