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Message: <blockquote data-quote="kahn_bloodbane" data-source="post: 5662466" data-attributes="member: 6680273">honestly, when I started my campaign (around 15 years ago, and yes it's still ongoing) I did tell the players, "the system is this one, it isn't perfect, everyone agree to it's rules? we can play something else if you like" players gone "yeah ok we want to play D&D" and thus we played D&D, there been lots of reading rules, lots of rule lawiers trying to get stuff going how they liked, then there been the 3rd edition and the afterwards conversions, and, finally 3.5 (we never got to 4th, we all agreed it sucked) we had many players and many dms and well, the fundamental rule of it is, the books are the rule what there is written is the rule, end of it, if players are smart enough to attain immortality using such rules (there's ways) they will suffer consequencies of it (ok now your immortal, happy? let's keep on playing.. if you don't have fun anymore knowing there's no way you can be beaten you can change your character, else you have to keep on playing that one.) some quit their characters some kept on til today (over 10 years) the game kept on going, legends born, legends got lost (the baddies: oh your immortal? really you can't die? ok let's trap you in the negative material plane.. bye bye) some legends returned (you trapped me in the negative plane.. now it's time for PAIN >:|) and so on.. overall the players are happy.. and are STILL happy.. there's always more things to do, to discover, the worlds are endless, and no amount of power is umbeatable.honestly, it's not power that changes your so called balance (my dming method is balance-free and running fine!) it's the creativity of the players, and how they manage to exploit whathever little thing and dm hook or thing they find in adventures, I've seen 5th level wizards beat 12th level wizards with creative use of few low level spells, I've seen warriors so full of apparently minor magical items that could do the rogue job better than rogues or even improvise themselves wizards, I've seen a 7th level party beat TWO cr 11 black dragons, I've seen a 11th level party beat a freaking atropal in 4 rounds of combat simply using the player's handbook spells and being well prepared knowing they was going against an atropal..it's a roleplaying game, there's no way to predict the ideas of players and if players has a magnificent idea should we penalize them in the name of balance?the world lives with the characters, there's friends, enemies, allies, territories, a warrior wins over a wizard in myth drannor, why? the wizard spells are very unlikely to work there, a warrior wins over a wizard if he is king azun IV of cormyr, simply because his court mage and his whole kindom will probably wipe the floor with the baddie wizard face for him, a warrior who has more money to spend than he can count can hire a band of drow mercenaries for a ridiculous amount of money to kill the wizard in question, or can buy a bunch of iron golems for protection, or even a beholder maybe..the class matters relatively it's what you build in the whole campaign, the people you help, the people for who you do quests, those who are grateful toward you, those who loves you, those who follows you and would follow you til hell and back if you'd ask them to (see cohorts and leadership skill followers), the gods you helped (if you got high level enough to do such a feat).you can talk of 1vs1 fights only at 1st level when nobody knows the people, but in the travel from 1st to 20th level you pretty much are speaking of wars between large factions not between two specific people, it takes a tremendous amount of time and effort to get to high level and you are BOUND to leave a large trace of your passage. always.</blockquote>

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