A Simple Light Question - That has our Group Divided

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Everyone,

I suppose the question can be best expressed as this:

In a dark tunnel (no light), can a human see an everburning torch (20ft. bright/20ft. shadowy) 50ft. in front of them?

In our game, the distance was more like 100ft.; I'm just trying to see where the boundary of perception lays.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

PS: I ruled (at 100ft.) that no they could not - all they could see up ahead was darkness. Because something rather nasty happened soon after (murderous mist blinding a couple of party members) I have a couple of players questioning the decision.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think I'd rule that in a dark tunnel, you could see an everburning torch pretty much at line of sight. It's only if the tunnel curves or if there's an obstacle providing cover that you'd have a problem.

-Hyp.

 

[Vorput]

I don't have rules for this, bvut you can see light a LONG way off... it's hard to tell how far away, and how much light... but it can be seen.

That's a common sense call though.

Vorp

 

[Hadrian]

As others have stated, I don't see any logical reason they wouldn't be able to see the light at 50 (or even 100) feet.

And, though I can't quote any rules to back this up, I would even say that at 50 feet they could see into the area lit by the torch.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

I think I'd rule that in a dark tunnel, you could see an everburning torch pretty much at line of sight. It's only if the tunnel curves or if there's an obstacle providing cover that you'd have a problem.

-Hyp.

The tunnel was slightly curved in terms of gradient - sloping down but concave up if that makes any sense. They maybe could have thus got a slight sense of light up ahead I suppose. The actual question works the other way though. The enemy was preparing an entangle/murderous mist combination. However one of the PCs ventured forward to parley - voicing their innocent intentions. The question becomes could the PC have been seen by the lizardfolk Shaman (the voice was definitely heard)? As I said, I ruled no and even if so, it would have made little difference to a Shaman protecting her tribe's eggs - she was not going to wait and see if the PCs would play nice after killing the tribes king (as well as many others).

Anyway, I was just wondering if there was anything from the rules or SRD on the topic even though what you say does make sense. Out of interest, how far away with line of sight do you think you would have to be before you could no longer see the torch?

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[shilsen]

You should be able to see a light in complete darkness at any distance, as long as you have line of sight.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

For me..

If is a dark tunnel and you have unrestricted LOS to a torch.. you can see it. How well you can see will depend on the distance, which gets into those nasty distance modifiers on a spot check. At 100 feet, which would be a -10 to spot, you could tell it was a torch and probably see the critters moving around it pretty easily.

Even if the torch was around a single bend, you should be able to tell that there is a light source ahead, but would not be able to determine what type of light source {beyond 'fire', 'sunlight','moonlight', 'magical light' as each of these have distinct visual properties.. I mean type as in torch vs bonfire} nor how far away the source is.

Two or more bends could completely stop the light, depending on how reflective the cavern walls are. Slick, muddy dirt does a fair job of reflecting *some* light around corners.

 

[Kobold Stew]

The distinction for me is between whether you can see the light, and whether you can see what the light illuminates.

For the former, LOS is sufficient for stars, and so should reach 100' in game terms. However, when I look into a tunnel and see a light, it takes a Kn (19th C) roll to know that it is attached to a locomotive (with a synergy bonus from Kn (Road Runner).) I can't see the locomotive, or indeed the area the locomotive's light illuminates. Perhaps its movement may suggest particular critters, but very little details.

So, with your question, yes, you can see the light, and perhaps you can see shapes moving, but only with the detail that is implied by something-less-than-=shadowy-illumination. Low light vision could perhaps change that to "shadowy illumination".

Hope this helps.

 

[ValhallaGH]

The light from a lit cigarette can be seen from up to three miles away at night over clear terrain (this assumes little or no light pollution). You can't discern any details but it's enough to let people know that there is someone over there smoking a cigarette. In a dark tunnel, a burning torch can easily be seen at any reasonable distance and even a few unreasonable ones.

At 100 feet I would rule that a small amount of the surrounding area could also be discerned, namely seeing that there was someone near the light, someone of roughly medium size. With a DC 20 spot check I might even let them conclude that it actually was something reptilian.

I hope that was helpful.

 

[FireLance]

Think of it this way: if the entire area was brightly lit, would you have allowed the characters to see things 100 ft. away?

What if the area was lit by a daylight spell instead of a continual flame so that the characters were standing in shadowy illumination (for a human)? Would you still allow the characters to see things 100 ft. away?

A character standing in a square of shadowy illumination does not have a miss chance when attacking an opponent in a brightly lit square, but a character standing in a brightly-lit square has a miss chance when attacking an opponent in a square of shadowy illumination.

It seems to me that a character's ability to see things in a square depends on the lighting level in the square he is looking at, not the lighting level of the square he is in.