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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6960473" data-attributes="member: 996">On further reflection, I think part of the reason I so readily answered 'yes' to the question was because I knew the posited ideal was quite impossible.&nbsp; If I learned anything from my experiences with 3e... OK, among the many things I learned from my experiences with 3e, was the fact that there's no need to design 'rewards for system mastery' into a complex system.&nbsp; Those rewards are inevitable, and intentionally aiming for them just causes you to overshoot the mark and wildly over-reward system masters (or those who spend a few minutes googling their discussions).&nbsp; Rather, aiming to minimize the pay-off of system mastery (striving for the OP's hypothetical conditions) not only still delivers system mastery rewards (just smaller ones), it also makes the optimization exercise a more engaging one, while simultaneously letting players who have no interest in that mini-game play along side those who do with minimal friction.&nbsp; Sounds obvious now that I've typed it, almost not worth mentioning, but, then...Mostly kinda common-sense stuff once you read it.&nbsp; I have to express ...something (irony, perplexity, bemusement... yeah, bemusement) ... at two points, though:1) Funny that some cogent analyses of RPG issues are actually analyses of video game issues.&nbsp; Particularly since calling an RPG &quot;videogame&quot; is prettymuch fight'n words.2) (or rather 8) 'Submission?'&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; There aren't enough false cognates between the RPG and BDSM communities already?&nbsp; And neither that nor 'Abnegation' much suggest the actual type of fun:&nbsp; It's 'Relaxation,' OK.&nbsp; Plain &amp; simple R&amp;R.&nbsp; Gaming as a pleasant pass-time.&nbsp; OK, actually, a third thought on that article:&nbsp; None of those types of fun seem remotely exclusive or incompatible to me - nor like something I'd want only one of out of an RPG experience (why, yes, I would like a bit of challenge among my relaxation, and to exscape into a narrative &amp;c).&nbsp;&nbsp; I know whether it was the Roll v Role debate or GNS or whatever, gamers seem compelled to find justification for championing one game or style or TrueWay or whatever above all others, but (again), I just don't buy it.&nbsp; But, honestly, is there anyone who reads through that lists and can't see the fun in 7 of them at all?&nbsp; (Forums have a tremendous track record of conjuring up at least one poster willing to cop to some strange attitude or improbable experience, but I'll be genuinely, if only very slightly, surprised if someone pipes up claiming to grok only 1/8th the fun of RPGs.)Aside from that, nice relaxing article.&nbsp; ;P</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6960473, member: 996"] On further reflection, I think part of the reason I so readily answered 'yes' to the question was because I knew the posited ideal was quite impossible. If I learned anything from my experiences with 3e... OK, among the many things I learned from my experiences with 3e, was the fact that there's no need to design 'rewards for system mastery' into a complex system. Those rewards are inevitable, and intentionally aiming for them just causes you to overshoot the mark and wildly over-reward system masters (or those who spend a few minutes googling their discussions). Rather, aiming to minimize the pay-off of system mastery (striving for the OP's hypothetical conditions) not only still delivers system mastery rewards (just smaller ones), it also makes the optimization exercise a more engaging one, while simultaneously letting players who have no interest in that mini-game play along side those who do with minimal friction. Sounds obvious now that I've typed it, almost not worth mentioning, but, then... Mostly kinda common-sense stuff once you read it. I have to express ...something (irony, perplexity, bemusement... yeah, bemusement) ... at two points, though: 1) Funny that some cogent analyses of RPG issues are actually analyses of video game issues. Particularly since calling an RPG "[i]videogame[/i]" is prettymuch fight'n words. 2) (or rather 8) 'Submission?' Really? There aren't enough false cognates between the RPG and BDSM communities already? And neither that nor 'Abnegation' much suggest the actual type of fun: It's 'Relaxation,' OK. Plain & simple R&R. Gaming as a pleasant pass-time. OK, actually, a third thought on that article: None of those types of fun seem remotely exclusive or incompatible to me - nor like something I'd want only one of out of an RPG experience (why, yes, I would like a bit of challenge among my relaxation, and to exscape into a narrative &c). I know whether it was the Roll v Role debate or GNS or whatever, gamers seem compelled to find justification for championing one game or style or TrueWay or whatever above all others, but (again), I just don't buy it. But, honestly, is there anyone who reads through that lists and can't see the fun in 7 of them at all? (Forums have a tremendous track record of conjuring up at least one poster willing to cop to some strange attitude or improbable experience, but I'll be genuinely, if only very slightly, surprised if someone pipes up claiming to grok only 1/8th the fun of RPGs.) Aside from that, nice relaxing article. ;P [/QUOTE]

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