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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Storm Raven" data-source="post: 3265757" data-attributes="member: 307">I don't know where you get the idea that wanting the game rules to actually work to support basic fantasy tropes means that you are somehow hostile to cooperating with the DM. You keep saying this like it proves some point, but all it really does is show you aren't even understanding the conversation.Seconady skills weren't defined other than to have a big percentile list stuck in the DMG. They didn't just provide no mechanical bonus (as you imply) they provided no guidance at all. Saying "you could use secondary skills" is basically saying "here is a list of words, you have to make up the rest". But the criticism being talked about here is that the DM should not be called upon to be a spur of the moment game designer to deal with simple concepts that should be covered by the core rules of the game. Saying "you could make something up" just proves our point - 1e was a lousy system in this regard.And by relying entirely on DM fiat you place a lot of weight on the DM (who now has to become an amatuer game designer, even if he does not want to be) and places the ability of a player to realize a very basic character concept at the mercy of DM fiat, DM fiat that may or may not be excercised wisely (and I am including the possibility that the DM would err on the side of generosity).You see, when I buy the game rules, I kind of expect them to be able to execute relatively simple things, like allow me in a fantasy game, to play characters common in the inspirational source material without having to make up my own rules to do so. I can make up rules. I've done so several times. But I'm paying money for a set of rules. I don't think it is too much to ask that the rules solutions amount to more than "make stuff up to fill our egregious gaps".</blockquote>

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