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<blockquote data-quote="evilbob" data-source="post: 3414960" data-attributes="member: 9789">Another thing about the simple damage &quot;turn&quot; variants:&nbsp; all undead have good will saves (it's inherent to their type).&nbsp; Add to that the fact that undead advance in CR at the rate of 1 CR per 4 HD, and you have that many undead of the right challenge level will often not have a problem making a will save against 1/2 cleric level + Cha, which is probably why they bumped it up to cleric level + Cha.&nbsp; (A CR 1 ghoul has a +5 will.&nbsp; A CR 4 wyvern zombie has +9.&nbsp; A lvl 4 cleric's turn DC would be around 16 at best.)And I still think 1d6 per cleric level is too low.&nbsp; You can't even kill CR 1/3 skeletons (well, 84% of the time anyway) as a level 1 cleric that way.&nbsp; It would take a level 2 cleric at least 2 turns to take out a CR 1/2 zombie.&nbsp; The problem isn't quite as bad against high-level intelligent undead that rely less on HP and more on tactics, but it still seems off.I'd propose the Complete Devine rule except that damage is 1d12 per cleric level, and turn resistance reduces damage by 6 x resistance (basically, an average of 1 level's worth).&nbsp; Greater turning could just empower the turn damage.&nbsp; (Plus, this way you finally have a use for those d12s!)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="evilbob, post: 3414960, member: 9789"] Another thing about the simple damage "turn" variants: all undead have good will saves (it's inherent to their type). Add to that the fact that undead advance in CR at the rate of 1 CR per 4 HD, and you have that many undead of the right challenge level will often not have a problem making a will save against 1/2 cleric level + Cha, which is probably why they bumped it up to cleric level + Cha. (A CR 1 ghoul has a +5 will. A CR 4 wyvern zombie has +9. A lvl 4 cleric's turn DC would be around 16 at best.) And I still think 1d6 per cleric level is too low. You can't even kill CR 1/3 skeletons (well, 84% of the time anyway) as a level 1 cleric that way. It would take a level 2 cleric at least 2 turns to take out a CR 1/2 zombie. The problem isn't quite as bad against high-level intelligent undead that rely less on HP and more on tactics, but it still seems off. I'd propose the Complete Devine rule except that damage is 1d12 per cleric level, and turn resistance reduces damage by 6 x resistance (basically, an average of 1 level's worth). Greater turning could just empower the turn damage. (Plus, this way you finally have a use for those d12s!) [/QUOTE]

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