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<blockquote data-quote="dave2008" data-source="post: 7793002" data-attributes="member: 83242">Great!&nbsp; Let's try to agree on some parameters then.&nbsp; Are you in for discussing the damage of a TWF ranger?&nbsp; If so, would you like to set the parameters or should I?I may have been obtuse, but it was not deliberate.&nbsp; I can see it now that I step back and look at my post, but I was just trying to be precise as I truly do not understand what you know / understand rules wise.&nbsp; They you react or ignore post is confusing to me.&nbsp; For instance, I don't believe you have ever clarified (and i have looked) that you understand a dueling style ranger, with no feats, does not get a bonus attack.&nbsp; You keep saying (paraphrasing):&nbsp; &quot;100% bonus actions&quot; &amp; &quot;bonus action source is irrelevant - you get them!&quot;&nbsp; Which implies you don't understand that fact.&nbsp; But maybe you have dropped the Dueling style discussion, if so you never acknowledged it (that I can see).Everyone in this discussion is including action surge because it makes sense to everyone, except apparently you.&nbsp; The class is clearly designed to include action surge damage and that is by far the most common usage of actions surge (heck I know people who didn't realize it could be used otherwise).&nbsp; Yes, one could choose to use it otherwise.&nbsp; But if that is your argument, the same applies to Hunter's Mark.&nbsp; For example HM is not a given.&nbsp; It has to be&nbsp; spell chosen (Action surge is a class feature - all fighters get it).&nbsp; Furthermore, it is a concentration spell.&nbsp; If a range wants to do something else with concentration (similar to a fighter choosing to use action surge for something other than attacking), it looses the HM.&nbsp; The ranger must also use a bonus&nbsp; action to switch HM to a new target, and HM is lost and has to be recast if the ranger looses concentration.&nbsp; They only way for a fighter to loose its action surge is to use it.&nbsp; Though it could not get recharged if there are no short rests.&nbsp; So the are broadly very similar.&nbsp; It makes sense to include them both, this is clear to almost everyone.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dave2008, post: 7793002, member: 83242"] Great! Let's try to agree on some parameters then. Are you in for discussing the damage of a TWF ranger? If so, would you like to set the parameters or should I? I may have been obtuse, but it was not deliberate. I can see it now that I step back and look at my post, but I was just trying to be precise as I truly do not understand what you know / understand rules wise. They you react or ignore post is confusing to me. For instance, I don't believe you have ever clarified (and i have looked) that you understand a dueling style ranger, with no feats, does not get a bonus attack. You keep saying (paraphrasing): "100% bonus actions" & "bonus action source is irrelevant - you get them!" Which implies you don't understand that fact. But maybe you have dropped the Dueling style discussion, if so you never acknowledged it (that I can see). Everyone in this discussion is including action surge because it makes sense to everyone, except apparently you. The class is clearly designed to include action surge damage and that is by far the most common usage of actions surge (heck I know people who didn't realize it could be used otherwise). Yes, one could choose to use it otherwise. But if that is your argument, the same applies to Hunter's Mark. For example HM is not a given. It has to be spell chosen (Action surge is a class feature - all fighters get it). Furthermore, it is a concentration spell. If a range wants to do something else with concentration (similar to a fighter choosing to use action surge for something other than attacking), it looses the HM. The ranger must also use a bonus action to switch HM to a new target, and HM is lost and has to be recast if the ranger looses concentration. They only way for a fighter to loose its action surge is to use it. Though it could not get recharged if there are no short rests. So the are broadly very similar. It makes sense to include them both, this is clear to almost everyone. [/QUOTE]

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