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<blockquote data-quote="jaelis" data-source="post: 7970263" data-attributes="member: 60210">Oh good point about dex saves I forgot. So your argument is:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">TS is helps when your hit chance is terrible, but then you have to compare to a save cantrip</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Invisibility rules out most save cantrips (frostbite, toll the dead, infestation). Cover (lets suppose) rules out bonfire, and gives a big bonus to Dex saves for acid splash.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">That leaves I think poison spray and thunderclap. Of those poison spray seems much superior. To rule these out, I guess you must assume that you can't approach within 10 feet of the target for some reason.</li>
</ul>So the proposal is that TS is good to have when fighting an invisible creature behind cover that prevents you from seeing the ground, and you can get with 30 feet but not within 10 feet of it.I guess I'm willing to give you that. But I'll stand by my claim that what you really want to do is cast it before combat starts. I think that is both more likely and also more beneficial: while I agree that TS might be your best cantrip option in the situation you describe, it is a pretty terrible situation and almost certainly your best bet is to cast a leveled spell that doesn't suffer from these problems.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jaelis, post: 7970263, member: 60210"] Oh good point about dex saves I forgot. So your argument is: [LIST] [*]TS is helps when your hit chance is terrible, but then you have to compare to a save cantrip [*]Invisibility rules out most save cantrips (frostbite, toll the dead, infestation). Cover (lets suppose) rules out bonfire, and gives a big bonus to Dex saves for acid splash. [*]That leaves I think poison spray and thunderclap. Of those poison spray seems much superior. To rule these out, I guess you must assume that you can't approach within 10 feet of the target for some reason. [/LIST] So the proposal is that TS is good to have when fighting an invisible creature behind cover that prevents you from seeing the ground, and you can get with 30 feet but not within 10 feet of it. I guess I'm willing to give you that. But I'll stand by my claim that what you really want to do is cast it before combat starts. I think that is both more likely and also more beneficial: while I agree that TS might be your best cantrip option in the situation you describe, it is a pretty terrible situation and almost certainly your best bet is to cast a leveled spell that doesn't suffer from these problems. [/QUOTE]

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