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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Treebore" data-source="post: 2295507" data-attributes="member: 10177">Sorry, last time I checked the rules creatures around 5 levels below the level of the party are supposed to be worth earning some xp's. Mowing them down as easy as grass doesn't earn xp's.As for the rhetoric, I don't mind it. I am perfectly aware of how legitimate and useful it is.I think Whirlwind is just another example of power creep in 3E. When you have to throw creatures that are almost the same power level, individually, to challenge the party, the group is too powerful.At least in the encounters the spellcasters had to use a lot of their spells, and then use a fair amount of healing. Of course when they ran into the fire giants things got real ugly. Who essentially even got a surprise round on the party. OF course the Fire Giants were at the other end of the power spectrum. They had at least an AC of 23, about 140 HP's, and dealt 3d6+15 Damage with each attack, with a +20 full attack bonus. Kicked the parties butts until they started drinking potions of flying and got into the air.I still don't see how people think great cleave does more damage. Say the average damage is 19 per hit. Say the target has 44 HP and the PC has two attacks per round. If they do above average damage, and hit both times they get a cleave with their second attack, which is 5 lower, so less likely to hit on the cleave attack. If they do average they will have to wait until their next round to get the cleave attack. The good thing about this is that it will be at their highest BAB for the Cleave. If they roll above average damage this round they may actually get to use their great cleave on their second target, but likely will be on their iterative attack by this time. So in this two rounds of combat they have gotten two cleaves and maybe even a great cleave, doing maybe 57 points of extra damage and taking down two enemies.Meanwhile, lets say the whirlwind guy has just a sword, and has 4 NPC's around him, either attacking him or one of his buddies. He gets four attacks that round at his highest BAB. So unless he rolls badly (in the case of the player in my game) he will only miss on a 1 because of his high BAB. So in two rounds he will do an average of 152 Damage to all 4 of the NPCS, 38 HP to each. The Great Cleave has only done 133 HP's, but has taken down 2 of the opponents, assuming they didn't miss on any of the iterative attacks or rolled any 1's. Anyway, I see the Whirlwind guy doing a lot more damage, and getting significantly worse as bonuses are added, and worse if he uses a reach weapon. So Great Cleave is a lot more balanced in terms of damage done to NPC's. Plus Whirlwind is worse than any mage with metamagicked spells, simply because a Whirlwind fighter can deal that damage all day long. Mages/sorcerors/spellcasters are limited to spells per day or charges.So yes, it is "bad" of me to take away feat bonuses to Whirlwind, but it is an overly powerful feat to begin with. So to be fair I guess I should add to my house rules that Whirlwind is not allowed. That will probably be fairest. Or they can live without the bonuses, and realize they will still be a damage dealing machine, even in comparison to the supposedly awesome Cleave/Great Cleave.The only time I ever see Cleave/Great Cleave become awesome is after the mighty spellcaster has already softened up the enemy with fireballs, etc... Throw a Whirlwind fighter in the mix, and the Great Cleaves will never stop. Severe power escalations, which is exactly why a lot of DM's don't like DMing high level parties, it gets real hard, real fast, to keep them challenged.So I'll keep being the stupid DM who is terribly unfair, and I'll also keep it easier to keep my players PC's challenged, and easier and more worthwhile for me to DM.</blockquote>

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