Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Wrought Iron Fence Made of Tigers
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4479746" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Is it about that?</p><p></p><p>D&D 4e doesn't have starvation rules. It doesn't have fatigue rules. It doesn't have rules about weapon breakage. If you've run out of healing or magical ammo, you just take a quick nap, and you're ready to go again in the morning. If you run out of arrows, pick up a rock and throw it and it works almost as well (less damage, sure, but it'll carry whatever ranged weapon attack you need). </p><p></p><p>All of those kinds of rules would certainly support this "dungeon survival" game, and I think I'd really enjoy playing the kind of game where your resources are truly sapped and the danger is that you know you're going to run out if you don't do something soon.</p><p></p><p>But I don't see those rules in D&D 4e. I see them more in earlier editions (and, really, the earlier you go, the more you see it). 4e characters auto-refresh their powers as long as they can get a night's sleep, so they're not seriously in danger of running out of resources most of the time. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm pretty okay with that, but Diablo does it better and with flashier effects. I'd hope for some context, maybe. Some character development. Some advancement of archetype. Something beyond combat. At least as much as Diablo has. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> 4e has nods to that resolution, but they are broad and general, rather than specific and evocative.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I want rules for whatever the game wants to help me do at the table, which includes telling the story, playing the role, and making up the fluff. "Make Stuff Up" doesn't help me. This doesn't give me direction, inspiration, or evocative reasons to roll some dice and crunch some numbers. </p><p></p><p>If the game thinks fantasy ecology is important and wants to evoke the feeling of being a Natural Philosopher in a world full of fantastic beasts, it should support that. I need to know the answer to the question "What do I do when the swords get sheathed?"</p><p></p><p>4e's answers seem to be either "Whatever you want!" (which is useless to me) or "Unsheathe them for the next battle!" (which is useful, but rather redundant, and pointless to me since videogames generally do the battle thing with more appeal than D&D). </p><p></p><p>They're both completely valid answers, I guess, but I think the game would be a lot stronger if it supported doing something -- that's something specifically, not anything generally -- after the combat was over. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This isn't about some lack of "realism," though. This is about how story and game should go hand-in-hand to support each other (like the examples I posted above, which are no less abstract than some of 4e's biggest abstractions!), and, from where I'm coming to it, about how 4e drives a wedge between the two, seemingly intentionally. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>4e doesn't let stories affect mechanics, or vice-versa, but this usually makes a better game for me. 4e mechanics support "a story," in the general sense of there are rules there and you can tell a story using them, but they don't support any specific story, which makes them suffer in my mind.</p><p></p><p>As far as specific points, I'll re-post what Merric posted above, because it's a pretty good example of the wrought iron fence made of tigers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Another example I gave just above was 4e's monster creation system, which gives you the numbers, but nothing to do with them. It assumes you already have something to do with them. I want rules and story to go hand-in-hand, so that the story I'm telling affects the mechanics I use to tell it, and the mechanics I use to tell the story affects the type of story that I tell. 4e's monster mechanics, and these "ooze tripping rules," drive a wedge between them so that it doesn't matter what story I'm telling, the power basically works the same, and it doesn't matter what the power's description says it does, it's not going to affect anything outside of the next five minutes (for the most part).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 4479746, member: 2067"] Is it about that? D&D 4e doesn't have starvation rules. It doesn't have fatigue rules. It doesn't have rules about weapon breakage. If you've run out of healing or magical ammo, you just take a quick nap, and you're ready to go again in the morning. If you run out of arrows, pick up a rock and throw it and it works almost as well (less damage, sure, but it'll carry whatever ranged weapon attack you need). All of those kinds of rules would certainly support this "dungeon survival" game, and I think I'd really enjoy playing the kind of game where your resources are truly sapped and the danger is that you know you're going to run out if you don't do something soon. But I don't see those rules in D&D 4e. I see them more in earlier editions (and, really, the earlier you go, the more you see it). 4e characters auto-refresh their powers as long as they can get a night's sleep, so they're not seriously in danger of running out of resources most of the time. I'm pretty okay with that, but Diablo does it better and with flashier effects. I'd hope for some context, maybe. Some character development. Some advancement of archetype. Something beyond combat. At least as much as Diablo has. ;) 4e has nods to that resolution, but they are broad and general, rather than specific and evocative. I want rules for whatever the game wants to help me do at the table, which includes telling the story, playing the role, and making up the fluff. "Make Stuff Up" doesn't help me. This doesn't give me direction, inspiration, or evocative reasons to roll some dice and crunch some numbers. If the game thinks fantasy ecology is important and wants to evoke the feeling of being a Natural Philosopher in a world full of fantastic beasts, it should support that. I need to know the answer to the question "What do I do when the swords get sheathed?" 4e's answers seem to be either "Whatever you want!" (which is useless to me) or "Unsheathe them for the next battle!" (which is useful, but rather redundant, and pointless to me since videogames generally do the battle thing with more appeal than D&D). They're both completely valid answers, I guess, but I think the game would be a lot stronger if it supported doing something -- that's something specifically, not anything generally -- after the combat was over. This isn't about some lack of "realism," though. This is about how story and game should go hand-in-hand to support each other (like the examples I posted above, which are no less abstract than some of 4e's biggest abstractions!), and, from where I'm coming to it, about how 4e drives a wedge between the two, seemingly intentionally. 4e doesn't let stories affect mechanics, or vice-versa, but this usually makes a better game for me. 4e mechanics support "a story," in the general sense of there are rules there and you can tell a story using them, but they don't support any specific story, which makes them suffer in my mind. As far as specific points, I'll re-post what Merric posted above, because it's a pretty good example of the wrought iron fence made of tigers. Another example I gave just above was 4e's monster creation system, which gives you the numbers, but nothing to do with them. It assumes you already have something to do with them. I want rules and story to go hand-in-hand, so that the story I'm telling affects the mechanics I use to tell it, and the mechanics I use to tell the story affects the type of story that I tell. 4e's monster mechanics, and these "ooze tripping rules," drive a wedge between them so that it doesn't matter what story I'm telling, the power basically works the same, and it doesn't matter what the power's description says it does, it's not going to affect anything outside of the next five minutes (for the most part). [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
A Wrought Iron Fence Made of Tigers
Top