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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 4227554" data-attributes="member: 29398">From some research I've been doing using stats from lots of our dice-rolled 1e characters, I can say this much: initial stats don't make very much difference to the expected career length of the character, provided it survives the first adventure it is in.&nbsp; That said, the array presented here is quite low by our standards; the stat average is only 12.2 where our long-term average by rolling (5d6, drop 2 lowest, adjust for race) is about 14.1.&nbsp; Only 4 characters out of the 160 or so I checked had a starting average lower than this.That said, starting with low-ish stats in 3e (and even more so in 4e) is mitigated by the fact that even if you never find any stat-boosting items some of your stats will go up with level no matter what you do.In 3e, a 1-21 character will get by function of level a total of 5 stat points to chuck around as desired (at 1 per 4 levels).&nbsp; That's not much, and is (I think) based on the percentile increments given to 1e Cavaliers...1 stat advancing per 4 or 5 levels is mathematically about right for that system.In 4e, it looks like 2 points per 4 levels plus 6 points (one per stat) at each &quot;tier&quot; level so a 1-21 (for comparison) will get 2 points on each stat *plus* another 10 points to throw around on 2 different stats at a time...so your guy that starts out at 16-14-13-12-10-8 will be, by 21st level, 18-16-15-14-12-10 with 10 more points, no more than 5 of which can be in one stat, assigned as desired; giving a stat average of 16.8 no matter how they are assigned.&nbsp; I didn't check our lot's high-level averages, but I'm safe in saying 16.8 would be way high if attained at all.This is how 4e is able to do away with all the stat-boosting magic items everyone had, by building stat-creep in as an intrinsic feature of the character.My question is, why does this amount of stat-creep need to be present at all?Lanefan</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 4227554, member: 29398"] From some research I've been doing using stats from lots of our dice-rolled 1e characters, I can say this much: initial stats don't make very much difference to the expected career length of the character, provided it survives the first adventure it is in. That said, the array presented here is quite low by our standards; the stat average is only 12.2 where our long-term average by rolling (5d6, drop 2 lowest, adjust for race) is about 14.1. Only 4 characters out of the 160 or so I checked had a starting average lower than this. That said, starting with low-ish stats in 3e (and even more so in 4e) is mitigated by the fact that even if you never find any stat-boosting items some of your stats will go up with level no matter what you do. In 3e, a 1-21 character will get by function of level a total of 5 stat points to chuck around as desired (at 1 per 4 levels). That's not much, and is (I think) based on the percentile increments given to 1e Cavaliers...1 stat advancing per 4 or 5 levels is mathematically about right for that system. In 4e, it looks like 2 points per 4 levels plus 6 points (one per stat) at each "tier" level so a 1-21 (for comparison) will get 2 points on each stat *plus* another 10 points to throw around on 2 different stats at a time...so your guy that starts out at 16-14-13-12-10-8 will be, by 21st level, 18-16-15-14-12-10 with 10 more points, no more than 5 of which can be in one stat, assigned as desired; giving a stat average of 16.8 no matter how they are assigned. I didn't check our lot's high-level averages, but I'm safe in saying 16.8 would be way high if attained at all. This is how 4e is able to do away with all the stat-boosting magic items everyone had, by building stat-creep in as an intrinsic feature of the character. My question is, why does this amount of stat-creep need to be present at all? Lanefan [/QUOTE]

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