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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 8373967" data-attributes="member: 23751">If you want Tolkien elves, play Middle Earth.&nbsp; D&amp;D elves have never been Tolkien elves and 5e has no obligation to give them to you.&nbsp; Tolkien elves can't be made by a floating ASI by the way.&nbsp; They have VERY different abilities than D&amp;D elves and subraces.Then I'll repeat it to you one last time.&nbsp; I've never once said +2 dex defines elves.&nbsp; I said it is an important piece to elves.&nbsp; If you have only +2 dex, you don't have ANY race.&nbsp; A stat bonus cannot achieve what is necessary.&nbsp; If you have only the racial abilities minus the +2 dex you do have elves.&nbsp;&nbsp; You just have incomplete elves.&nbsp; As an analogy, if you have the elven abilities but no dex bonus, you have the Mona Lisa but with a big white hole where her face should be.&nbsp; It's still recognizable as the Mona Lisa, but it's very incomplete.&nbsp; If you have +2 dex and no abilities, it's like just having her face and nothing else.&nbsp; You might recognize it as a piece of the Mona Lisa, but it won't be the Mona Lisa.No, that is NOT what I said.&nbsp; I said that taking something away is a change that people dislike and resist, so taking away a floating bonus is harder than adding in a floating bonus.&nbsp; Giving something extra is a change that people do like, making it easier.The feat is a learned ability. It may or may not get a bonus. This is completely different than inherent traits, and is also something any elf can get.&nbsp; As a racial stat bonus humans can only achieve +1.Yes they do.&nbsp; WotC screw-ups due to their slavish devotion to balance don't change the fact that Loxodons SHOULD get a strength bonus for their size and strength.&nbsp; If they weren't going to portray Loxodons correctly, they never should have made the race.That 100 pounds of extra weight matters.&nbsp; There's a reason why you don't see 100 pound lighty flyweights fighting 200 pound cruiserweights.&nbsp; They'd have no chance due to the strength difference.Size is more than height.&nbsp; Dwarves are the same size as humans.&nbsp; Both are medium and in the same weight ranges.Dude.&nbsp; The difference between 150 pounds(hill dwarf) and 165 pounds(mountain dwarf) is not close to the difference between humans(165 pounds) and goliaths(277 pounds).&nbsp; 15 pounds is not close to 112 pounds.=</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 8373967, member: 23751"] If you want Tolkien elves, play Middle Earth. D&D elves have never been Tolkien elves and 5e has no obligation to give them to you. Tolkien elves can't be made by a floating ASI by the way. They have VERY different abilities than D&D elves and subraces. Then I'll repeat it to you one last time. I've never once said +2 dex defines elves. I said it is an important piece to elves. If you have only +2 dex, you don't have ANY race. A stat bonus cannot achieve what is necessary. If you have only the racial abilities minus the +2 dex you do have elves. You just have incomplete elves. As an analogy, if you have the elven abilities but no dex bonus, you have the Mona Lisa but with a big white hole where her face should be. It's still recognizable as the Mona Lisa, but it's very incomplete. If you have +2 dex and no abilities, it's like just having her face and nothing else. You might recognize it as a piece of the Mona Lisa, but it won't be the Mona Lisa. No, that is NOT what I said. I said that taking something away is a change that people dislike and resist, so taking away a floating bonus is harder than adding in a floating bonus. Giving something extra is a change that people do like, making it easier. The feat is a learned ability. It may or may not get a bonus. This is completely different than inherent traits, and is also something any elf can get. As a racial stat bonus humans can only achieve +1. Yes they do. WotC screw-ups due to their slavish devotion to balance don't change the fact that Loxodons SHOULD get a strength bonus for their size and strength. If they weren't going to portray Loxodons correctly, they never should have made the race. That 100 pounds of extra weight matters. There's a reason why you don't see 100 pound lighty flyweights fighting 200 pound cruiserweights. They'd have no chance due to the strength difference. Size is more than height. Dwarves are the same size as humans. Both are medium and in the same weight ranges. Dude. The difference between 150 pounds(hill dwarf) and 165 pounds(mountain dwarf) is not close to the difference between humans(165 pounds) and goliaths(277 pounds). 15 pounds is not close to 112 pounds.= [/QUOTE]

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