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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8374017" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Which of those were Tolkien elves? I didn't describe a single immortal celestial being overcome with Ennui. But, I did describe like four different types of DnD elves.So my Elven wizard who sings more beautifully than a bird, with a +2 INT and +1 Cha isn't an elf because I decided not to make him particularly graceful? That's what you are missing Max. For you elves need to have a +2 Dex, they all have to be graceful. For a lot of us? Elves being graceful is only one of four or five different things they could be. It isn't any more important than their wisdom, their intelligence, their charisma or even their strength. Plenty of sources for elves have them stronger than humans. I don't see elves who don't have a +2 Dex as being &quot;incomplete&quot; because a +2 Cha and a+1 Wis or Int is just as much an &quot;elf&quot; as a +2 Dex is. And, other than just repeating &quot;elves are graceful&quot; do you have an argument for why dexterity should be more important than any other stat for defining an elf?I don't know Max, seems like adding a floating bonus that anyone could put anywhere they like is being met with a pretty large amount of resistance and people leaving the game. Though, I will agree, it would be even harder to take a floating bonus and harden it to take it away, since there isn't really a good answer to why you couldn't just... use the floating bonus to give yourself the same stats as the hardened version.Not aware of elves who can get a feat by level 1, but okay, you don't like the version with feats and don't want that to count.How about the Mark of Finding Human (+2 Wisdom, +1 Con), the Mark of Handling Human (+2 Wisdom, +1 float), the Mark of Making Human (+2 Intelligence, +1 float), The Mark of Passage Human (+2 Dexterity, +1 Float), and the The Mark of Sentinel Human (+2 Constitution, +1 Wisdom)Why do these official human options with their +2's not count? Because, I know you are going to say they don't, just curious what reasoning it will be. I hope it isn't &quot;that's Eberron&quot; because the elves and Dwarves and Halflings and Dragonborn (ect ect ect) of Eberron are still using the PHB stats.Who says they didn't portray them correctly? Magic the Gathering has them as priests and wise leaders, and have them as fairly tough. +2 Wisdom, +1 Con... that seems exactly like what you would expect. They are portrayed very well by all accounts. They just don't match your prejudices.And Dwarves get that +2 Strength, but no Powerful Build feature like Goliaths, so why does +2 mean you should get Powerful Build in one case and not the other?So... 100 lbs matters, that's why it doesn't matter between a mountain dwarf and goliath who get the same strength bonus? And hill dwarves are only 15 lbs lighter, does a 115 lbs flyweight utterly dominate and destroy a 100 lbs flyweight? Because hill dwarves get a +0 strength, while mountain dwarves get that +2. And Goliaths with their effective +1 over humans due to 100 lbs of weight should leave the human utterly no chance due to the strength difference, so mountain dwarves with double that over hill dwarves should be even more effective. But, somehow, I think that 15 lbs isn't considered a massive weight advantage like that. And Goliaths being two feet taller and 100 lbs heavier should be stronger than Mountain dwarves, but they aren't.Right. And yet, here is the break downHill Dwarf&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4'1&quot;, 150 lbs +0 strengthMountain dwarf&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4'5&quot;, 165 lbs, +2 strengthHuman&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5'8&quot;, 165 lbs, +1 strengthGoliath&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6'1&quot;, 277 lbs, +2 strengthA difference of 4 inches and 15 lbs is a difference of +2, but a difference of nearly two feet and 112 lbs is a difference of +0. Meanwhile, a difference of 5 inches and 112 lbs is +1. Height and Mass in the real-world may indicate strength, but clearly it doesn't in the DnD world. I mean, would it help to expand this list to really drive that point home? Gnome&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 3'4&quot;, 40lbs,&nbsp;&nbsp; +0 strengthDuergar&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4'0&quot;, 114 lbs, +1 strengthHill Dwarf&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4'1&quot;, 150 lbs +0 strengthMountain dwarf&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 4'5&quot;, 165 lbs, +2 strengthElf&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5'5&quot;, 133 lbs, +0 StrengthZariel Tielfing&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5'6&quot;, 155 lbs, +1 strengthHuman&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 5'8&quot;, 165 lbs, +1 strengthGithyanki&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6'1&quot;,&nbsp; 165 lbs&nbsp; +2 strengthGoliath&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6'1&quot;, 277 lbs, +2 strengthThese numbers are all over the place. 110 lbs advantage is either a +0, a +1 or a +2 depending on which 110 lbs advantage you are talking about.I did discuss elves. But I find this confusing. Letting a dwarf get a +2 dex takes away from the elven identity, because elves get a +2 dex, but goblins and kenku don't? Or is a +2 dex bad because it takes away from a dwarven identity somehow instead of the elves?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8374017, member: 6801228"] Which of those were Tolkien elves? I didn't describe a single immortal celestial being overcome with Ennui. But, I did describe like four different types of DnD elves. So my Elven wizard who sings more beautifully than a bird, with a +2 INT and +1 Cha isn't an elf because I decided not to make him particularly graceful? That's what you are missing Max. For you elves need to have a +2 Dex, they all have to be graceful. For a lot of us? Elves being graceful is only one of four or five different things they could be. It isn't any more important than their wisdom, their intelligence, their charisma or even their strength. Plenty of sources for elves have them stronger than humans. I don't see elves who don't have a +2 Dex as being "incomplete" because a +2 Cha and a+1 Wis or Int is just as much an "elf" as a +2 Dex is. And, other than just repeating "elves are graceful" do you have an argument for why dexterity should be more important than any other stat for defining an elf? I don't know Max, seems like adding a floating bonus that anyone could put anywhere they like is being met with a pretty large amount of resistance and people leaving the game. Though, I will agree, it would be even harder to take a floating bonus and harden it to take it away, since there isn't really a good answer to why you couldn't just... use the floating bonus to give yourself the same stats as the hardened version. Not aware of elves who can get a feat by level 1, but okay, you don't like the version with feats and don't want that to count. How about the Mark of Finding Human (+2 Wisdom, +1 Con), the Mark of Handling Human (+2 Wisdom, +1 float), the Mark of Making Human (+2 Intelligence, +1 float), The Mark of Passage Human (+2 Dexterity, +1 Float), and the The Mark of Sentinel Human (+2 Constitution, +1 Wisdom) Why do these official human options with their +2's not count? Because, I know you are going to say they don't, just curious what reasoning it will be. I hope it isn't "that's Eberron" because the elves and Dwarves and Halflings and Dragonborn (ect ect ect) of Eberron are still using the PHB stats. Who says they didn't portray them correctly? Magic the Gathering has them as priests and wise leaders, and have them as fairly tough. +2 Wisdom, +1 Con... that seems exactly like what you would expect. They are portrayed very well by all accounts. They just don't match your prejudices. And Dwarves get that +2 Strength, but no Powerful Build feature like Goliaths, so why does +2 mean you should get Powerful Build in one case and not the other? So... 100 lbs matters, that's why it doesn't matter between a mountain dwarf and goliath who get the same strength bonus? And hill dwarves are only 15 lbs lighter, does a 115 lbs flyweight utterly dominate and destroy a 100 lbs flyweight? Because hill dwarves get a +0 strength, while mountain dwarves get that +2. And Goliaths with their effective +1 over humans due to 100 lbs of weight should leave the human utterly no chance due to the strength difference, so mountain dwarves with double that over hill dwarves should be even more effective. But, somehow, I think that 15 lbs isn't considered a massive weight advantage like that. And Goliaths being two feet taller and 100 lbs heavier should be stronger than Mountain dwarves, but they aren't. Right. And yet, here is the break down Hill Dwarf 4'1", 150 lbs +0 strength Mountain dwarf 4'5", 165 lbs, +2 strength Human 5'8", 165 lbs, +1 strength Goliath 6'1", 277 lbs, +2 strength A difference of 4 inches and 15 lbs is a difference of +2, but a difference of nearly two feet and 112 lbs is a difference of +0. Meanwhile, a difference of 5 inches and 112 lbs is +1. Height and Mass in the real-world may indicate strength, but clearly it doesn't in the DnD world. I mean, would it help to expand this list to really drive that point home? Gnome 3'4", 40lbs, +0 strength Duergar 4'0", 114 lbs, +1 strength Hill Dwarf 4'1", 150 lbs +0 strength Mountain dwarf 4'5", 165 lbs, +2 strength Elf 5'5", 133 lbs, +0 Strength Zariel Tielfing 5'6", 155 lbs, +1 strength Human 5'8", 165 lbs, +1 strength Githyanki 6'1", 165 lbs +2 strength Goliath 6'1", 277 lbs, +2 strength These numbers are all over the place. 110 lbs advantage is either a +0, a +1 or a +2 depending on which 110 lbs advantage you are talking about. I did discuss elves. But I find this confusing. Letting a dwarf get a +2 dex takes away from the elven identity, because elves get a +2 dex, but goblins and kenku don't? Or is a +2 dex bad because it takes away from a dwarven identity somehow instead of the elves? [/QUOTE]

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