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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8374202" data-attributes="member: 6801228">You said an elf without a +2 Dex is like an incomplete painting of the Mona Lisa. How is it a strawman to say then that if I had an elf with a +2 Cha and +1 Int that they are somehow not an elf. They are incomplete according to you, not a full and true elf unless I can get a bonus to dex instead of those other bonuses I chose. Or is an incomplete elf still a full elf?It wouldn't be bad. These fears you have about people not being able to portray the larger race "properly" are foundless.The only answer I remember being given directly is "because then WoTC didn't tell me what to do". That isn't a good answer. I get that people want it prescribed, they want to be forced into the mold the company created for the races, but that doesn't make it a good reason that they can't just follow that mold without being forced into it. And for those who are saying "But I wouldn't be able to play against archetype".. sure they can. A halfling barbarian is against archetype for the bland, pastoral farming folk whether they have a +2 strength or a -2 strength. One is just more heavily penalized. Also, there are somethings that I don't know if they should be "against archetype" why should dwarves not be wizards? What about them makes that concept somehow antithetical to their dwarfness. The scholarly study? There are only two reasons it is "against type" 1) Decades ago they couldn't do it and were anti-magic. This is no longer true anywhere in the game. 2) They don't get a +2 Int, so they are supposed to be frontliners, not mages. And for the people who say "but I won't be able to stop myself from being a powergamer! (wilhelm scream of horror)" Then the tropes and bonuses really weren't that important to you compared to getting better numbers.Weird how humans are the only ones that have them as a racial feature then, but whatever, goal posts are always shifting."These official humans don't count because they are in a setting!" You mean, the same setting that the PHB Dwarves, Elves and halflings are in? So, Eberron is the only place in the multiverse where elves aren't elves because humans are elves? You said, to quote directly "Show me the human who gets +2 with purely racial bonuses." For someone so careful with your words you really should have been more specific if you wanted to say "Show me the human who gets +2 with purely racial bonuses, and is a general race and not a setting specific one because those don't count." I mean, I can't use humans from a specific setting, I can't use the variant human... so what you really wanted is to say "but the baseline human in the PHB doesn't get a +2" because that is the only human you will accept in the discussion.Do you just not pay attention to your own posts? Remember this?Goliaths can lift twice as much as humans -> ie have powerful buildTherefore (because they have powerful build) they should get a +2 strength bonus. You even literally say "is my argument". Your argument is that Powerful Build and +2 strength are connected, one leads to the other. But, when I show that they don't... it is a flaw in the game, the designers didn't do it right, and it is a mistake.Great, so why does a creature with nearly 100 lbs on another have the exact same strength, while a creature with the exact same weight have a +1 over the other? DnD uses boxing weights for reality, right? So why is a 40 lbs creatures at +0 strength same as a 133 lbs creature while a 165 lbs creature has a +2 and a 277 lbs creature also has a +2. Mass and height = strength, so why is this so nonsensical?And what if it isn't? What if I don't want a +2 Con for my dwarf?I mean, you are willing to give every PC an additional +2 over and beyond anything their race has, just to try and hold onto these stereotypes that... don't matter. Elves can still be more dexterous on average, even with floating scores, just like people from Japan tend to be shorter than average, despite still being human like the rest of us. You don't have to lose the perception of the global population, just because we change how we do PCs.</blockquote>

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