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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8380568" data-attributes="member: 6801228">You aren't getting the argument. They didn't actively discourage it. They never stepped in and made a declaration to make it illegal. But they encouraged dwarven fighters and clerics and barbarians more than any other class option. Like Scribe said, those were the types of options that made the best use of the dwarves stats, so they expected people to do that, discouraging them from making a dwarven wizardAlso, they didn't allow casting in armor (doesn't matter if it is metal) because of dwarven wizards, they did it because of Eldritch knights. You know, the fighters casting wizard spells while in platemailFirstly, it isn't arbitrary, I just can't find the frakkin articles. But I know people have referenced this math all over this forum, so I'm sure you've seen it. And secondly, of course they could assume that. They have to assume you take a race, and if you take human, your highest is a 16. If you are planning on playing a rogue you are going to take a dex race, how can we assume that, because the players are capable of basic logic. The game says that if you are a rogue, you should max your dex, and therefore you would pick a dex race. Additionally, what is the most iconic rogue? Halfling Rogue. What do they get? +2 Dex for a total of 17 or 16 if you shoot for a 16/16 build. What was the pre-gen rogue? Halfling Rogue, with a 16 or higher dex. Again, they had to assume you would take a race. They can't assume the racial bonus is +0 because no race gets that. And they encourage you multiple locations to take an archytpical race/class combo this is going to lead to a 16. That was the baseline.No, they wouldn't have. It makes no sense to assume that every character would be weaker than the iconic character you are encouraging people to play. Again, they aren't expecting you to play against type, that doesn't make logical sense.Just because it is permissive doesn't mean that they weren't encouraging these combos. Why else would every pre-gen character, and even the very example of building a character, be an archetypical class/race combo?But they didn't want that. They knew people would, because that's the direction the game has been going, so they couldn't punish it. People hated that in 3.5 and they paid attention to that, but they still made certain combos superior, to encourage people to select them. And if you are encouraging that, then you are assuming people will take the bait and build those characters.And who cares? The point may stand that a +2 is viable. We've never claimed otherwise. Have your highest stat as a 14 and you won't be useless. But that doesn't mean that's what you want. That doesn't mean that is the expectation, and those feelings pressure us into certain patterns. And people are sick of the patterns, we want to move past this already. And a few people who vehemently agreed with you before, came back and said "actually I was wrong. I like this. It feels better" You can tell them that their feelings old and new are factually and statistically wrong, but you aren't going to get anywhere, especially since it is so trivially easy to show how expected the 16 is. Just play a human.There is if you expect the baseline to 14 or 15, becuase the only characters even capable of that with the standard array are the ones that are against type.Dude, you were responding to me and we've even had a mod tell us how borderline our conversation is. I expect most of the thread is ignoring us, don't go telling me that because no one else bothered to read your post that they understood it.Rooted in biologyThen what was your point in asking me if I've ever grown a callous. It doesn't apply to a fantasy creature with fantasy rules anyways.Of course it is limited to one race, because we say it is. If we say that non-elves can't learn these feats, then they can't. Fantasy races with fantasy rules.Player's also make the decision to take the lucky feat. If lucky feat is them learning a skill because it was chosen, then the +2 dex is also a learned skill because it was chosen. It is even being chosen by the same decision point, the level 4,8,12,16,19 ASI choice.</blockquote>

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