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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8385206" data-attributes="member: 6801228">That is even more nonsensical, there are only 16 numbers it is possible to get by rolling, and your special rolling method limits this even further. Having the same numbers is meaningless. Especially since a character with 15 strength and 8 Cha is very different than one with 15 Int and 8 Dex.Words have meaning Max, and you constantly tell me that, and that you are careful with your words. So, no, it isn't disengenious to take you at your word. That is what you constantly tell me to do, respond to your exact words, not what I interpret.No, it isn't. And it is only those same six if every player always takes the array. And since I've never seen that once, I think you are overblowing it.Identical? No. Close enough for an abstraction? Sure. I mean, it is equally unrealistic that every Ogre has 19 strength and 6 INT, but that's what basically every ogre run at tables has. As well as about 60 hp.Have you ever seen a strength based fighter with a 3 strength as their starting point? Obviously not all fighters train at the same school, but it isn't unreasonable that a lot of them are going to end up in about the same place. Your claim that having a 15 in any stat is unrealistic because everyone ends up with something as a 15 is mind-blowing. That isn't how this works. (And yes, I know it is a 15, then a 14, then a 13, then a 12 then a 10, then an 8. Point stands. Your objection makes no sense)Ha, hah, haha. No, answer the actual question. If they started with an 18 before training, why did training not make them stronger?And then at level 4 they choose to be stronger, because they can just do that.Yes, they absolutely did. To the point that at least two different webcomic artists made a joke about it, without even needing to provide context. Driz'zt is an archetype for Drow now, and he wasn't before.1) You realize every cleric has medium armor proficiency right? Going dwarf or getting a feat is a waste of time. My point was since half have medium armor (the other half have heavy) that they are going to want dex. 2) Can get Charisma by dropping strength, they don't need it if they don't want to do melee3) Maybe. But I'm not talking about exceptional elves, I'm talking about average elves. Because, this is the flaw. If I make an elf that is exceptional... they don't need to conform to the average. So, if we except all PCs are exceptional, then it doesn't matter what the average version of their race is, they aren't average they are exceptions.Unless the elf is rolling a heavily armored cleric and dumps dex, and the dwarf is rolling a thief and bumps it. But then, those aren't "average" to you. And we end up back where we started. You just declaring that certain things make sense and are true for all game worlds, because that is what you are used to.Many people, including Lanefan on another thread. It comes up all the time.</blockquote>

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