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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zardnaar" data-source="post: 6423447" data-attributes="member: 6716779">This thread is about ability scores and what I have noticed. For the most part we have been using the default stat array of 8,10,12,13,14,15 with the occasional use of point buy and 1 PC has rolled her stats. In our games you are allowed to roll but you only get to do it once (no rerolls) and you have to do it in front of the DM. If you get an exceptionally crap character you may be allowed to default to the stat array otherwise tough. I rolled some dice in front of my DM the other day and got 3 16's and his response was "we can talk about it later. I think I may be able to use that PC but I will not be allowed to optimise the PC as such. There are some pros and cons of dice rolling are straight forward with one exception. That exception is the default human and if the dice come up right you can have some crazy ability scores. an 11,11,13,13, 15,17 would be a default humans dream scores (ok ok 17,17,17,17,17 17 would be). 12,12,14,14,16,18 as ability socres at level one would be a nice trade off for no bonus feat or racial abilities. RAW the DM can't stop you from rolling for scores and in the PHB rolling for scores is actually ahead of the stat array or point buy. The pros and cons of the stat array are not as apparent. If you think the default human sucks but only allow the stat array to be used "theres your problem" to quote Adam from Mythbusters.Stat ArrayPros.Balance (if everyone uses it)You do not get a sucky character.Cons.Dump stats (usually intelligence maybe charisma)Cookie cutter type PCsA lot of pressure to use races which get racial bumps to the stats you want for your class.Default human stinks. In our games you have the choice of stat array, point buy or dice rolling. In basic D&D the human is a decent race, with PHB races it is obsoleted by the Half Elf if feats are not used and by the variant human if that is allowed. If you want to try something like a mountain dwarf wizard with 16 intelligence you will need to roll your dice or be happy with a 14 or 15.  The most "efficient" way of assigning your scores seems to be to get 2 16 starting at level 1 with the stat array. This usually means the 14 goes in your prime stat and 15 in your secondary stat and racial bonuses increase this to 16/16. That is not the be all and end all of stats however as I have seen a half orc with 17 strength at level 1 which becomes an 18 at level 4 with the heavy armor master feat. In effect the half orc got a stat increase and a feat at level 4, the trade off was 14 or 15 con instead of 16 at level 1.Point Buy Point buy is semi rare in our games as it is difficult to get stats much better than the default array anyway. For some concepts such as multiclasing it may work marginally better. It offers the most benefit to Half Elves and the default human IMHO. The default human can have game stats of 12,12,12,14,14,16 at level 1 for example and this actually makes a semi decent skill monkey PC with no dump sata and no bad saving throw as such, the trade off is no feat at level 1. A half elf can get 2 15's and a 13 and start the game with 16/16/14 as their best 3 stats.Dexterity Vs Strength.In the play test I believed dexterity was better than strength. This was before the final form of the feats was revealed. In Basic D&D (no PHB) I still think this if the PHB is being used but feats are not allowed. If feats are allowed strength for the most part is better due to the following feats.Heavy Weapon MasterPolearm MasterShield Masterand to a lesser extentHeavy Armor MasterMounted (probably have not seen it in action yet) 5E may not have feat taxes as such but I consider the 1st 3 feats to be borderline if not outright feat taxes to make strength not suck. Warcaster would be another borderline feat tax as it solves the RAW problems with using somatic gestures for spellcasting classes and it is probably overpowered when combined with the bless spell. What is is better than a +1 bonus to hit and damage via a stat buff? Extra attacks (cleave via great weapon master, pole arm master), +10 damage, being able to get advantage and avoiding damage on AoE effects, and +2.5 on attacks and saves for 3+ members of the party. The strength based feats are more powerful than the dexterity based feats probably because dexterity is better than strength in a vacuum although sharpshooter can compete with the stength based feats in terms of damage especially on the Ranger class. Dexterity vs Strength pt2In a vacuum strength and dexterity are neck and neck in terms of damage (fighting styles) and AC. Not ever class gets fighting styles however or those fighting styles are more limited than the fighters options. Most theory crafters assume the player has maxed their dexterity as so much is keyed off it. Strength based PCs however do not need to buff their strength to maximise AC as they will generally be wearing heavy armor. You notice this a lot with hybrid classes like Bards and Clerics who may want a decent strength score but are not planning on buffing it due to wanting to take feats or buff their spell casting stat. There are also Gauntlets of Ogre Power in the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure that my character for example got and he was a light cleric who was planning on buffing wisdom anyway and the PC was later rebuilt as a valor bard to make the DMs life easier. Gauntlets of Ogre power are better for the hybrid classes rather than a fighter type for example. The Gauntlets did not break the light cleric as such as I was not planning on making physical attacks anyway and at level 8 1d6+5 damage is not that impressive compared with a 2d8+5 sacred flame spell. For other cleric types, bards, some warlock builds the gauntlets are a great item. Some of those classes may be a little on the weak side anyway due to MAD as you have to make a choice between a feat, buffing your attack stat or buffing your spell casting stat which can trip the hybrid type classes up. Those classes also get better with rolled stats as you can get your double 16 and a 14 con for example. A double 16+ feats will work fine IMHO all the way to level 20 as long as you pick the right feats.Armor Types 5E has 3 armor types. In theory it really only has 2(heavy and light). Medium armor however is better than it looks on paper even though its AC is one less than heavy armor. Some classes for example do not get heavy armor (valor bards, light clerics, warlocks, mountain dwarf wizards etc). Once again those hybrid classes may have something better to do than  wear light armor and buff their dex to 20 by level 8 or so. This niche is where medium armor comes into play. For example my light cleric human variant had these ability scores at level 1.Str 14Dex 14Con 12Int 8Wis 15Cha 10 The obvious trade off of course is having a 12 con instead of 14 if you used heavy or light armor. My PC is a little odd as he is trained in stealth and athletics, got rebuilt as a valor bard and took the warcaster and shield master feats by level 4. He also got lucky with the Lost Mines of Phandelver adventure and got both the gauntlets of ogre power and +1 breastplate armor as he was the only one wearing medium armor and without a 18 in their prime attack stat. The downside of medium armor is that your stas are already more or less chosen for you by default. If feats are allowed the moderately armored feat is actually good as it allows the same AC as full plate while being able to have a moderate dexterity score with no penalty for stealth rolls either. This lets medium armor users that can cast enhance ability (dexterity) be more or less as good as rogues at stealth which can be useful for getting surprise rounds. I got lucky with the +1 breastplate armor but non magical splint mail with 16 dex can give you an AC score of 20. My AC has not increased since level 4 either and we are now level 9 so there is that to consider. A Pass Without Trace spell is usually required to negate the penalty on heavy armor character if you need to sneak anywhere. Fighters get more feats so a high strength and dexterity fighter using the moderately armored feat offers all of the advantage of heavy armor with out of combat utility of a decent dexterity score. Bards also get expertise so a valor bard in medium armor and expertise in stealth can easily enable surprise rounds and can cast enhance ability or invisability as well. If feats are not used medium armor is still decent for several classes although you only need a 14 dexterity. A Wood Elf light cleric for example should be happy with the following array.St 13Dex 14Con 14Int 8Wis 16Cha 10 This cleric also gets to use a shortsword instead of a mace and can use a longbow instead of sacred flame for level 1-4 if not 1-7. The players guides such as they are in the player help section of the forums tend to over estimate heavy armor usefulness. For example I think the light cleric is probably the most powerful cleric but it is regarded as one of the weaker clerics because it lacks martial weapons and heavy armor. Its a blaster cleric so doesn't need them anyway IMHO.</blockquote>

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