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<blockquote data-quote="Scars Unseen" data-source="post: 5925807" data-attributes="member: 10196">Why would you use attack rolls for arm wrestling?&nbsp; No attack is necessary; just do a contested strength check(and suddenly there is a difference, even in the 7-14 range).&nbsp; My point is that if you take away the importance of an ability score in relation to class features, you take away the drive for players to min max their characters scores towards class optimization, while also removing the current stigma that random ability generation has(can't say I blame people when a bad roll could leave you with 40% less chance of success than another character of the same level that got a good roll).As far as carrots...&nbsp; Do you similarly get upset that your chances of rolling all 18s is about 1 in 100 trillion?&nbsp; Granted, I agree that the whole percentile thing was garbage, but not because of the probabilities; I just thought that it interrupted the flow of the chart.&nbsp; Exceptional in AD&amp;D was meant to be the exception, not the norm.&nbsp; It was designed around a style of play meant more to resemble Band of Brothers than the Justice League(although magic, of course ruins that analogy).&nbsp; You were good at your job because you trained in it, and if you happened to be in the top 10% of your species, physically(or mentally, depending on the stat), you were a little bit better.&nbsp; The key being &quot;a little bit.&quot;What I would personally like to see is less common class effectiveness related bonuses and more granular ability related bonuses.&nbsp; For example:&nbsp; for class abilities, bonuses/penalties are:[code]3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; -24-5&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; -16-15&nbsp; &nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; +016-17&nbsp;&nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; +118&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; +2[/code]The next step depends on how far you want to go in order to separate raw ability from skill.&nbsp; If you want raw ability checks(i.e. saving throws, the above arm wrestling example, breaking down a door, etc) to be on the same level as skill checks, you could just use the normal WotC bonus progression.&nbsp; Conversely, if you wanted every single point in an ability to matter for the purposes of raw checks(i.e. a tangible difference between having a 12 and a 13), you could leave skill checks as they are, but have raw ability checks simply be d20 + ability score.With that system, and assuming that point buy systems make players pay a lot to get an 18 in an ability, you would have players less worried about getting every last bit of optimization for their class because the value just isn't there.&nbsp; Instead, the importance would be placed on what you wanted to be skilled at, and whether it is more important to you that your fighter be able to lift up a rock or to discern a pattern on the mythical Puzzle Stone.And that, for me, is a win.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Scars Unseen, post: 5925807, member: 10196"] Why would you use attack rolls for arm wrestling? No attack is necessary; just do a contested strength check(and suddenly there [i]is[/i] a difference, even in the 7-14 range). My point is that if you take away the importance of an ability score in relation to class features, you take away the drive for players to min max their characters scores towards class optimization, while also removing the current stigma that random ability generation has(can't say I blame people when a bad roll could leave you with 40% less chance of success than another character of the same level that got a good roll). As far as carrots... Do you similarly get upset that your chances of rolling all 18s is about 1 in 100 trillion? Granted, I agree that the whole percentile thing was garbage, but not because of the probabilities; I just thought that it interrupted the flow of the chart. Exceptional in AD&D was meant to be the exception, not the norm. It was designed around a style of play meant more to resemble Band of Brothers than the Justice League(although magic, of course ruins that analogy). You were good at your job because you trained in it, and if you happened to be in the top 10% of your species, physically(or mentally, depending on the stat), you were a little bit better. The key being "a little bit." What I would personally like to see is less common class effectiveness related bonuses and more granular ability related bonuses. For example: for class abilities, bonuses/penalties are: [code] 3 -> -2 4-5 -> -1 6-15 -> +0 16-17 -> +1 18 -> +2 [/code] The next step depends on how far you want to go in order to separate raw ability from skill. If you want raw ability checks(i.e. saving throws, the above arm wrestling example, breaking down a door, etc) to be on the [i]same[/i] level as skill checks, you could just use the normal WotC bonus progression. Conversely, if you wanted every single point in an ability to matter for the purposes of raw checks(i.e. a tangible difference between having a 12 and a 13), you could leave skill checks as they are, but have raw ability checks simply be d20 + ability score. With that system, and assuming that point buy systems make players pay a lot to get an 18 in an ability, you would have players less worried about getting every last bit of optimization for their class because the value just isn't there. Instead, the importance would be placed on what you wanted to be skilled at, and whether it is more important to you that your fighter be able to lift up a rock or to discern a pattern on the mythical Puzzle Stone. And that, for me, is a win. [/QUOTE]

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