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<blockquote data-quote="Jacen" data-source="post: 3336378" data-attributes="member: 18654">I had guessed it already.OK. They were quite correct.&nbsp;Yes, quite closely. I think that the combat starts when enemy is seen or spell takes an effect. I would give an listen check if (for example) it was told that the door looks realy heavy or rusty. It could squeal when opened and that can specify that other is alerted and thus preventing the surprise. Or if they are guard watching the door and waiting it to be opened - even thought they are not fully alert and are talking (spot checks with modifiers for PCs benefit). So I could give NPCs some changes to notice the door. But the main point was that I wouldn't start the combat before the door is open and they see the enemy. If the door is opened slowly and carefully to check if there are anybody inside more rolls for NPCs to avoid the surprise. If the door moves silently (and is not locked) and kick in succeeds then I wouldn't give any checks more besideds listen for precombat spell casting. And by default I think door is good and moves quite silently. And what goes for spell casting, you have to say verbal components aloud. So that is the difference in basic case. Have to admit that now when thinking examples you gave I hade to go more specifics than I would have cared. But anyway the main point for me was that I udnerstand the rules so that the combat starts when enemy is seen/attacked. I would even allow rogue to make move silent attempts (if the door was opened silently and NPCs didn't see/hear that) to get behind NPC to backstab as a surprise. And after that he would get an another sneak attack as an surprise round standard action. Hope that clarifies how my mind goes and what is my POV.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jacen, post: 3336378, member: 18654"] I had guessed it already. OK. They were quite correct. Yes, quite closely. I think that the combat starts when enemy is seen or spell takes an effect. I would give an listen check if (for example) it was told that the door looks realy heavy or rusty. It could squeal when opened and that can specify that other is alerted and thus preventing the surprise. Or if they are guard watching the door and waiting it to be opened - even thought they are not fully alert and are talking (spot checks with modifiers for PCs benefit). So I could give NPCs some changes to notice the door. But the main point was that I wouldn't start the combat before the door is open and they see the enemy. If the door is opened slowly and carefully to check if there are anybody inside more rolls for NPCs to avoid the surprise. If the door moves silently (and is not locked) and kick in succeeds then I wouldn't give any checks more besideds listen for precombat spell casting. And by default I think door is good and moves quite silently. And what goes for spell casting, you have to say verbal components aloud. So that is the difference in basic case. Have to admit that now when thinking examples you gave I hade to go more specifics than I would have cared. But anyway the main point for me was that I udnerstand the rules so that the combat starts when enemy is seen/attacked. I would even allow rogue to make move silent attempts (if the door was opened silently and NPCs didn't see/hear that) to get behind NPC to backstab as a surprise. And after that he would get an another sneak attack as an surprise round standard action. Hope that clarifies how my mind goes and what is my POV. [/QUOTE]

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