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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3337123" data-attributes="member: 2011">Seen, heard, spell goes off, what is the difference?The rule in the book is when the DM decides based on the awareness of one or both sides.Who cares if it is a silently opening door? Listen check DC 25. Spot check DC 10, higher if the NPCs are distracted playing dice or some such (any NPC might be looking in the direction of the door when it opens, right?).First off, I wouldn't typically allow the door to be opened before combat either. However, if the players requested it, I might allow it in some situations because it is allowable by the rules (as per the DM of the OP).But, the difference between your POV and my POV is that if the door gets opened pre-combat, the NPCs immediately get a check to notice it (and/or to notice a PC opening the door) with my POV. Those NPCs who make the check, are not surprised. With your POV, the NPCs are automatically surprised. How (according to the rules)?And, why does one have to "see the enemy"?Your players cannot have a fight with a Wizard with a Greater Invisibility up?And, how does this follow the rules?The rules state that one only has to be aware of the enemy, not that they have to see him.And chances are, some NPCs might see the PCs if the PCs open the door. So, your point here does not make sense.Well, most doors in a medieval setting probably wouldn't be very silent unlike well designed doors in modern life. Maybe in the house of a noble or powerful merchant, but not most doors in many adventuring settings.But regardless of that, I still do not understand you.What difference?DC 0 Listen to hear a spell being cast. DC 10 Spot to see the door opening. DC 10 to hear a door opening. Whatever.How is this different as you claim? You are not making sense. Sorry.The door could be well oiled. How is that pertinent to this discussion. That just makes the DC for a door opening Listen check higher. But, the NPCs would still get a Listen and/or Spot check, right?Just because a door was opened.Granted, there could be a situation where the NPCs expect a fellow NPC to come through the door and the DC would be higher. But, they still get a check.The problem with your POV is that the surprise is automatic (according the examples I gave and you agreed with).The only check you appear to want to give is not when combat starts (to see if they are surprised), but before the door is even opened (to see if they notice anything before the PCs can spring their surprise).No. It does not.You are stating what you would do, but not why and not how what you would do follows the Suprise round rules.You are not explaining why the pre-combat action of opening a door does not give the NPCs checks, but the pre-combat action of casting the spell on the other side of an open doorway does. That is what would be helpful. Why are the actions treated differently in your POV? You explained WHAT you would do, but not WHY that follows the rules.I understand what you are saying, but not why your POV follows the rules. It does not appear to follow the rules at all (except for that one silly example in the DMG that also does not follow the rules).</blockquote>

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