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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jacen" data-source="post: 3337513" data-attributes="member: 18654">There are problems on your theory too. Let's think that there is that door and PCs have heard noices that speak goblin. OK, so the buff themselfs and then start the combat. NPCs doesn't know about PCs. As a surprise round the first opens the door. Well, tries because it was locked. Thief tries to pic it as his surprise std action and fails. So the don't get into the room. NPCs didn't notice a thing so they are still unaware of the PCs. Acording the rule the combat is now going because the surprise round is over. So now what? Roll for initiative because the surprise round is over? So now PCs have lost all possibilites to surprise the enemy even though they still don't know about PCs. And if NPC roll high for initiative they even aren't flatfooted anymore. Even they still don't know that they are in combat.  If they try to open the door slowly to get a peak into the room, yes. If they rush in then no. At the point I do not have PHB or DMG at hand, only the SRD.  Again you are putting word to my mouth. Like I tried to tell it depends about the door and how it is opened. If PCs know that there are NPCs inside and try to surprise them then by default they open door fast to surprise thoes inside. If they try to sneak in then checks. Sneaking is not the surprise. Surprise is what they do after the sneak. If they manage to sneak...To start the combat.  If they don't know about the enemy then they can't.  See, hear, smell, notice spell effect or being told. All the same. You need to know about enemy to combat.  That is the action to initiate the combat. Door opens and the combat starts. Did NPCs know about the PCs? No, all they know is that the door opened.  If they execept the door to open it doesn't surprise them and then the opening of the door is not the action that starts the combat. And I don't understand how you can start combat without the enemy.  Did you except the door to open. That is the difference.  What is the DC to notice the combat started? If the door opens as planned then it is automatic. That was the plan.  That is the tactical advantage they were looking for. To open the door so that enemy inside is surprised.  Like I asked. What is the DC for starting a combat? Opening the door initiated the combat. They are execpted to notice the door opening. If they don't then the combat doesn't start and PCs have more time to act.  But it does follow the rules. Door opens and combat starts. Did they know about the PCs before that? If no then it is surprise. PC decided to try a surprise -> opening the door faster than normal.  So in you POV lone PC can't get any benefit from surprising the enemy? Openig the door must be the surprise round action. Only way a lone PC can get any benefit is that he opens the dor normaly and hopes that anyone didn't notice. Or start the combat and open the door as a surprise. Then situation is the same than without the surprise. Only that after the surprisee round unaware attendants roll for initiative. So because the surprise you didn't get any benefits only some "punishment". So what is the point of surprise then? To lose tactical advantade? If you hear someone behind the door you almost except the door being opened. If you don't exept it to open that will surprise you. Give me a rule that tells that combat starts when the players want it to start. Casting of the spell doesn't start the combat. Opening the door does, or if it doesn't then they can act more before the combat. If NPCs hear the the casting they can go to a round time scale and ready an action to cast when door opens. When that opens the PCs are surprised if they didn't hear the casting.  In my POV it follows the rules IMHO. The main difference in our POVs is that what triggeres the combat.</blockquote>

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