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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3337886" data-attributes="member: 2011">First off, picking a lock is a full round action and cannot be done with a Standard Action within a Surprise round.This is what I am talking about. Following the rules, not making new ones up. You are viewing this from a plausibility POV, not a rules POV. This is a rules forum. Let's discuss the rules, not what you think the rules should allow.Second, you are mixing apples and oranges here. We were discussing opening the door pre-combat with the examples I gave. Your "problem set" here is discussing opening the door as part of a surprise round (as per what the DM adjudicated for the OP's first post).This problem that you are talking about does not exist in the examples I gave because the door was opened in that example before combat started and hence, none of these problems you mention here are pertinent to that. All of these actions are pre-combat as well.One topic at a time please. If you want to go back to the other discussion, fine. But the post of mine that you were responding to did not have these problems you are mentioning.This is another reason why I am having difficulties communicating with you. You are not discussing the rules and then are bouncing back and forth outside the discussion that we are making at the moment. Please try to stay on track and please try to discuss the rules and how they apply to what you would do, not just what you would do.I am not putting words in your mouth. I gave the two examples. You agreed. If the door is opened pre-combat with your POV, the enemies are automatically surprised. That is what the second example stated. That is what you agreed to.Are you stating that you no longer agree to that? If so, what are you saying and how does what you are saying apply to the rules in the pre-combat open the door scenario?Because the DMG says so. It might not make sense to you, but that is the rule.If one side is aware of the other, the DM can allow that side to initiate combat (based on how the DM wants to handle it). It does NOT state that the side aware of the other has to see them (other rules might require sight such as Line of Sight rules, but that has nothing to do with whether combat starts).You are adding sight as a requirement for the start of combat as a house rule, but that is not the rule in the DMG. The rule is awareness to start combat, not sight.This appears to be the crux of our disagreement. The DMG states awareness, but you are requiring sight.First, NPCs do not roll checks to notice if a combat starts. They roll checks to notice the PCs. One does not make rolls to notice metagaming concepts. Again, this goes back to the rules discussion. You seem to mix character concepts with metagaming concepts back and forth in your statements which makes it difficult to follow what you write.Second, the DC to notice the PCs is whatever the DM states it is. If the PCs open the door and are standing there, the DM might state a DC 10 Spot roll for all of the creatures in the room to be looking in the direction of the door at that particular moment.Or, the DM might state that it is a DC 15 Spot roll. Or, the DM might state that they are all playing dice and it is a DC 20 Spot roll except for the one NPC facing the direction of the door who gets a DC 15 Spot check.It does not matter what the DM decides. It's just up to the DM to decide.And, the DM might also decide that even though the NPC sees the PCs, the NPC might still not take a standard action in the surprise round. The NPC might be confused as to why strangers are standing there and might not immediately think combat. That is a motivation of the NPC decided upon by the DM.Just because an NPC makes a Spot or Listen check and the DM even rolls initiative for the NPC in the Surprise round does not mean that the NPC will do something. If the NPC rolls an early initiative, it might delay or it might do a non-combat action (like moving). It might not actually think it is in combat. If it rolls a late initiative and a PC attacks an ally, it might instead think combat.But, that creature is not surprised if it made the DC check.This is the rules point you are missing. No action by the PCs give automatic surprise. Please point out in the rules (not the examples) where automatic surprise occurs. It doesn't.If the action changes the environment and the NPCs can notice that change, they have a chance to not be surprised.This is not something the PCs automatically get (regardless of that one bad example in the DMG that does not follow rules).This is not the rule. The rule is not awareness before combat. The rule is awareness at the start of combat.This is your mistake. You think the rule is awareness pre-combat and not awareness at start of combat. The start of combat is when initiative dice are rolled.When the DM states "roll initiative" is when combat officially starts.If the door opens pre-combat, combat has not yet started.If the door opens as part of the surprise round (if the DM states that this is allowable), then the one side IS totally surprised. This scenario allows the problems you stated above and you as DM might not allow it in your game because of that, but the rules do not disallow it. The rules allow the DM to have one side that is aware of the other to initiate combat. That is a DM decision, but regardless of some DMs not doing that, it is allowed by the rules because the rules state awareness, not sight.You hit the nail on the head here. This is the rules.A lone PC can at best open the door pre-combat and hope nobody notices him.That is the rules. If he opens it as part of his surprise round (with DM permission post-combat started in the surprise round), the only other advantages he gets are that he can take a 5' step into the room, he can perform free actions, and he can perform one swift or immediate action. In this case, he does get some slight advantages over the NPCs because they were surprised. But, he does not get an additional standard action over the standard action he used as a move action to open the door.Yup. That's the rules. You not liking the fact that the PC does not gain more of an advantage does not change the rules.If the PC was out in the woods hiding, saw the NPCs and they did not see him, he could fire his bow (if he had it ready) and get an attack in. In this case, he does not have to open a door, hence, he does not lose his action opening the door (using a post-combat started scenario).Nope. DM decides when combats start. DM decides which of these two scenarios he wants to use (open door pre-combat, or open door in surprise round).The "open the door during the surprise round" option is a DM option. The DM of the OP chose that option. It is a valid option per the rules. If you do not like it, you as DM do not have to use it. But, it is a legal rules option.No. We can use the same trigger (opening the door in a pre-combat scenario).The difference in our POVs is that as per the DMG, I give the NPCs a check to see if they notice that action (or ANY action they can see or hear pre-combat) whereas you automatically have them surprised if they did not notice the PCs before the door was opened.The act of opening the door does not give them a Listen or Spot check in your scenario whereas it does in the DMG and my scenario.This is the pertinent quote from the DMG. Note: actual rules quote, not what I want the DMG to state.What does this mean? It means the DM decides when combat occurs.Let's take the three scenarios we have:1) The DM decides that combat occurs before the PCs open the door and their action of opening the door is a surprise round action:Surprise Round:PC 1 delaysPC 2 opens doorPC 1 steps in and attacksThis is legal. The DM decided that one side was aware of the other and a surprise round started.2) The DM decides that combat occurs after the PCs open the door with my interpretation.As per the rule I quoted here, it is pre-combat. It is possible for the NPCs to become aware of the PCs, hence, they get checks to notice the PCs.This is legal. The DM decided is was possible for both sides to be aware of each other if checks are made by the previously unaware side (as per sentence one in the quote above) and a surprise round started if some of the NPCs failed the check, otherwise, there is no surprise round and normal combat starts.3) The DM decides that combat occurs after the PCs open the door with your interpretation.As per the rule I quoted here, it is pre-combat. It is possible for the NPCs to become aware of the PCs.However, as DM, you are ignoring the first sentence of this quote and going with the second sentence of this quote. You are stating that you are NOT going to give the NPCs a chance to detect an incoming encounter, even though the DMG suggests that you do so.This too is legal. According to this text from the DMG, you are allowed to screw over the NPCs and not give them a check if that is what you want to do as DM.However, I think my interpretation is more RAW because it does not ignore the first sentence and it uses the suggestion in the second sentence. Yours does not.Your POV is legal, it just ignores what is written in the DMG and effectively uses rule zero to do what the DM wants to occur.</blockquote>

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