Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jacen" data-source="post: 3338048" data-attributes="member: 18654">Hmmm... I still think that you are putting some words to my mouth. Giving them a meaning that I didn't mean and are not wanting to understand some things I have wroten. So I think that this is not getting us anywhere, but let's try one more time.Splitting the hair. My point was that it can be that your surprise round "fails". Door doesn't open and NPCs still aren't aware of PC even it is time for them to roll initiative. So you just awoided the main point.  No I am not. Yes. That is problem how you were doing that. By RAW I don't see the problem how I would do that. By RAW how you would do it is correct too, but it has some BIG problems too. No it didn't, but the way you would do that would have those broblems. Mine wouldn't. And the thing I talked was part of the original topic of discussion. So I was more getting back to the original discussion. I was thinking that I was speaking about rules and how to use them.  Yes, but I didn't agree how you aplied them little bit differently afterwards.   Unless they hear that spellcasting or armor noises etc before the they open the door. If they are unaware when they open the door they are surprised.  It applies just RAW. Opening the door starts the combat. Those inside didn't know PCs and were surprised. How that is not RAW? How my doing is not RAW? And I am not alowing it to start, because it can lead to situation where there is combat and no enemies.  NPCs doesn't need to see them. The door is kicked in and the combat starts then. They can't attack or cast attac or area effect spells through the door. So the combat doesn't start. sight was the easiest thing to say. They open the door and see the enemy if it is not invinsible. Anyway it is the first situation they can attack it. And now it is time for the surprise. Well the NPCs notice to door kicked. So there is not anything more to notice. It is a combat then. I know that I have a mind with twist to sarcasm and that is really hard art.  Yes. They get the spot check, unless the PCs have stated that they surprise those inside. Then no save.  Well, surprise. You just told what the surprise is. Yes, but what does that to do what I said before? If you said that I jump to other things out of the one under discussion - you are doing that now. Yes if it managed it listen check.  It isn't automatic. There are DCs for the NPCs to beat and avoid the surprise - before the door is opened.  Sigh. You are not getting my point. Or you just don't want to.   So because example is bad in your mind it makes that invalid? Not to mind that it is not corrected or pointed wrong in official FAQs and erratas? After all that is an example in official rule book.  And rules state that surprise round happens before surprised rolls for initiative. Splitting the hairs I have to admit. Opening the door is roll for initiative if PCs have stated we surprise those inside. And RAW doesn't say that it can't be done the way I would.  And that punishes him. But What says that he can't kick the door in and surprise those inside? As far I don't know anything from rules preventing that. Swift and immediate actions aren't RAW. They are extra rules given in "advanced options rulebooks". But that is splitting the hair here. And without your way of surprise he would have a move action and free actions. So he changed move action to 5 ft step. And that way or doing is different from the exampe. That example is still in official rule book given how to carry that situation. Even if you think it is bad that is still official. And in my example the combat starts when arrow is shot. Then he gets the surprise std action.  Now we are getting somewhere. My way of doing gives some bonus from surprise and some meaning to really put some ranks on listen and spot. Except that example just states otherwise. And that way even makes more sense to me. Do they notice the door being opened. Definetly. It is being kickd in for the surprise. And I am giving them changes. Noise from armor, spellcasting etc. AND like I in previous posts already said: in some cases even checks from the opening the door. Exampes: rusty hings that prevents the door opened quickly. Heavy door that has to pushed in etc.</blockquote>

Verification