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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jacen" data-source="post: 3338793" data-attributes="member: 18654">To that I have to agree. There are so many things that are problem to me but not every one and vice versa. Maybe I am trying to do that too much as it would happen IRL. But the rules and that example supporsts it as I see the thing. And I am giving them change to detect that. There are checks that precedes that kicking in the door.  Like they would flying and teleport at will wizard with greater invisibility.  Well I would have done that almost same way. BUT for different reasons. Those two starts running and others are surprised. They have standard action which one of them uses to open the door. And because the possession I could have started the "combat mode" even. But because I don't recall all the possession rules that is not for sure.And once more I have to say that they would get that opportinity, excepet for the kicking in the door. With the assumption that it goes smootly as planned.  Well it depends that at which initiates the combat. At least as I see it.  That is what to rules support WITHOUT the surprise. Let's take this example. PC's hear the NPC. There is a closed door. PCs buff themself and makes sure that door is not locked etc. The NPCs fails the given checks. Now the combat starts. PCs roll for initiative like the NPCs does. Because the NPCs aren't aware of the PCs they do nothing in their turn if their initiative is higher than PCs. PCs delay untill everyone of then are on the same initiative. Or if you prefer they readyes an action that when that door is opened and the opening PC steps inside (or attacks what ever they had agreed on). (Actually readying makes more sense explaining that later.) One PC open the door -> move action and he still has the standard action left. All of the others have FULL ROUND action. And all acording the rules. The NPCs can act after the PCs and all acording the rules to the letter. And if the action readied was when that one PC steps in (or attacks or anything that was defined beforehand) the others acts before that stepping in (or attack or anything) So they may attack now. So they have standard action like in surprise round. And all just from the rules to the letter WITHOUT the surprise round rules. And best part is that of course the one with lowest initiative opens the door so those PCs with readied action might even act again before the NPCs inside. Only thing is that the NPCs aren't flatfooted anymore, because they are in combat even though they doidn't know that they were in combat.Wasn't that almost like the surprise I was descriping and without surprise? (without the flatfooted thing) So tell me why I would want to screw over my players just because they stated that they use tactical manouver called surprise? That surprise just makes sure that NPCs can do the same thing for PCs. That is because metagaming - when the PCs roll for the initiative they start acting -> they are ready or readies an action or something. Even if they don't know what is going on because of faild checks. So now the gaming concept surprise give an benefit by stating that unaware combat attendants are flatfooted. just like an tactical things should do and how logic says.  If you read the above examples you see that everything are consistent. That even works with the example you gave.  Because casting of the spell takes standard action or maybe even one round. Hearing someone speak 3 secs kinda takes and edge out of surprise. Besides that no door case my works even better without the surprise with the way of working I gave before. The more I have to think this the more confident I am in my way of thinking.</blockquote>

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