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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jacen" data-source="post: 3340056" data-attributes="member: 18654">If i am auto-surprise then you are auto-nullifying the surprise. Even now they would have been better without the surprise. Just delaying.  So even surprise as I do that wouldn't have allowed then to escape. Same results. You wan't them to get the surprise. Well OK. They can delay as a surprise attack too. Or ready an action. And now we are up to the point. The surprise makes the situation worse for those who does the surprise. If surprise passed they fare better. Is that the point of surprise? Now the just delay that surprise attack and situtation is the same again. "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin." OK all PCs delay or readies an action that doesn't trigger on surprise round. Surprise round CHECK. After that regular rounds begin. "At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check" Is surprise over? Check. Regular rounds starts? Check. Roll for initiative for combatants that were surprised. Check. Now players act at the same initiative because that delay or readied action. And now the situation is the same than in my example.So if you state that NPCs aren't combatants and becaues that it doesn't work. OR that you can't roll for initiative for them. If they can't be rolled an initiative because they aren't in combat then how did that surprise round happen? Surprise preceds an combat, so if players aren't in combat, they can't have an surprise round. So what is wrong with that? Besides you just saying that I am not following the rules.  Tell me what rule that is not following. Tell me and don't avoid the question. So long than you are avoiding that I see that as a prove that you can't.  Invalid straws like that rule as you play it weakens the players situation even that it should give a tactical benefit. Invalid straws that you just say breaks the rules? Consistently ignoring the point. And I am not laughing. My plane takes of from treadmill.If the NPCs kick the door in and PCs failed to notice things that happened before, then PCs are surprised. Casting the spell gives the listen check - unless that is one word activated etc.  Why do you even ask this? Of course the rules are the same for both side. No faforisim and it is not the players against the dm or the dm with the players. There are rules you know. Rules NOT favores.But I think that I have to leave it here. Your answers will be just like earlier. You are breaking the rules. You are not following the rules. Others might not have that problem. Or just ignoring the point. But I have a feeling that this is starting to get a personal and I am getting too sarcastic and I am just getting bored from repeating myself when trying you to get understand why I think like I do. You just mock me with that auto-surprise which used like that by itself states that I am wrong.</blockquote>

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