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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jacen" data-source="post: 3342235" data-attributes="member: 18654">And I thought that you following the rules needs that specific thing to happen. And once again "you are not following the rules".  "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised." What it has to do what DM desides? Doesn't the combat start when someone is going to attack.   So combat starts when DM chooses so.  So you need to be in combat to cast fireball just for fun? "I attack the dark. I cast magic missile. Do I hit?"  So now you can cast it out of combat. Doesn't that make it almost qual to opening the door?  But if the door is closed there is no combat.  These definetly are not rules. There is nothing in rules saying pre combat or post-combat. Do combat start when there are no one to attack? After all the rules says "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised." and "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."  So PCs can't start the combat because it is up to DM to desided when it starts? I have already answered to this. Because the players desided to surprise the NPCs.  You stated that aware so I guess you know that if both are unaware and if player states that he opens the door without knowing NPCs otherside are both surprised. So it is not bashed open. That can alert monsters nearby. Now when they are strting to attack they open it faster. They are still out of combat. I have to admit that delaying the attack while one openes the door makes sense.  Well they are. at the moment he steps to doorway surprise round starts. 5tf move and drawing a weapon is valid action to that. After Fighter have done that NPCs roll the initiative. If that is silent spell they are untill spell takes of. Spellcasting can't be fastened because we want to surprise.  Out of combat doing things. There is one difference. If you run 30 ft and hit the door, does that count as full round action? If you gather some force and kick the door in it is not standard open door. So maybe the err here is to speak about open door.I have to admit that now your example give me some things to think. And only explanation I have is that when I spoke about opening the door I didn't mean that you open the door like normaly. It is more likely that PC does something that results door being opened fast. Before that is opened the combat starts. If it is opened normaly there are spot checks before combat starts.</blockquote>

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