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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1192945" data-attributes="member: 2011">That is a nice sentiment on your part, but you and I both know the real reason you do not compare non-specialist wizards with sorcerers. It is because sorcerers get SO many more spells at low level than non-specialist wizards that even you are not willing to debate the effectiveness issue between the two.Every time you and I have discussed wizards, you immediately jump into the specialist wizards camp because you know that specialist wizards are much more potent and capable of survival than non-specialist wizards at low level.Absolutely. No doubt about it. Third level (and fifth level) are where the specialist wizard does as good or better than the sorcerer with regard to number of spells per day. It still doesn't mean that the specialist wizard necessarily has a greater chance of survival overall.First off, you blew off levels one and two where the specialist wizard has at most two and three spells respectively that he can pick out of his entire repertoire and one spell that he can pick from typically one or two spells out of his specialty class.At first and second levels, the extra first level spell per day is crucial. Spells like Sleep or Color Spray can make a major difference at first and second level. To get to third level, you have to survive through levels one and two (at least in campaigns where you start at level one).Also at those levels, spells like Daze and Disrupt Undead and even Ray of Frost are still semi-potent spells used at the proper time and the sorcerer not only gets more of them, but can pick any of the 5 or 6 zeroth level spells he knows. Six Rays of Frost from the Sorcerer can be damaging against a highly armored foe compared to one or two Rays of Frost (if any) from the Wizard.Until you get to third level, the sorcerer typically has a greater chance to survive.Except that you forgot two things:1) The specialist Wizard can do this IF the best spell is one from his specialty. Otherwise, one of his spells is limited to his specialty which may or may not be helpful in a given day.2) Although they have the same number of their highest level spell, the specialist Wizard has fewer of his lower level spells per day.A specialist wizard gains more versatility IF he picks the proper spells for the day. The sorcerer gains more lower level spells and can pick and choose from several each time (of which he tends to pick the most versatile spells anyway). Wizards tend to pick versatile spells, but also tend to not have the right spell available more often (at low levels). What good is the memorized Sleep spell against Undead?Sorcerers rarely have no spells for the situation at low level. Wizards often have spells memorized that might be totally ineffective because they cannot swap them out. This often lowers their number of spells per day that are useful.If you say so. Personally, the two or three extra spells of higher level for odd levels tends to balance out with the two or three or more extra spells of lower levels for even levels.Specialist Wizards are more powerful on odd levels (except level one). Sorcerers are more powerful on even levels until mid level.No, meta-magic is a major consideration at mid levels.Sorcerers basically are more powerful on levels 1, 2, 4, and 6 out of the first 6 levels.Specialist wizards basically are more powerful on levels 3 and 5 out of the first 6 levels.But, level 6 is where meta-magic starts to first really come into its own. Specialist wizards typically have at most a few meta-magic spells per day (if any). Sorcerers can effectively increase their repertoire of spells with meta-magic.Caught in the middle of a Silence spell, a 6th level Wizard (specialist or non-specialist) is typically dead meat and unable to cast a single spell. The Sorcerer with the Silent Spell feat is still functioning. It all depends on how well you design the Sorcerer. Sure, you could give the Silent Spell feat to a Wizard, but most players do not even consider it due to how limited its functionality is (i.e. it is like lowering every spell slot level you assign a spell in it to, hence, fewer higher level spells). Even if a Wizard has this feat, he might only assign one or a few spells with it (if any). If he gets caught in a Silence spell, he might still be unable to cast spells, even if he has the feat. The Sorcerer with that feat doesn't have this problem.You run out of torches at low level in a dungeon, you are often in the dark with any Wizard. With a Sorcerer, you typically have either Light or Dancing Light available. Of course this is no longer a problem at level three for Wizards who take Continual Flame (if they want to use a precious level two spell on this) or Clerics at level five. But before then, if your Clerics and/or Wizards are taking Light spells, they are not taking something else and even if they take them, they only last 10 minutes per level. An hour later and most low level parties without a Sorcerer will be out of light.Ditto for Detect Magic. Low level wizards can often only do it once per day (if that).Ditto for Read Magic. Find a cache of scrolls, the wizard might be able to read some of them and now have them for use (maybe). Find a second cache and it is rare that the wizard can read any more.No doubt about it. Specialist wizards (and eventually even non-specialist wizards) become more powerful straight up due to their versatility at mid to high levels. But this is not true at low level. Versatility per spell slot at low level is more critical than versatility overall, unlike mid to high level. At low level, Magic Missile will damage just about any opponent.But, your low level Wizards will still often study multiple different spells of every level, just to be ready for anything. Unfortunately, this versatility is the same thing that forces them to cast substandard spells in many situations because the situation they were envisioning does not come to pass. This can also happen with Sorcerers, but it happens a lot less often since they almost exclusively pick the most versatile (or powerful) spells available at every level.</blockquote>

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