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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 5895976">This depends on the game, some games are full of theater majors who act out all the funny voices and silly dialog.&nbsp; Some games are not.&nbsp; I think both methods of &quot;making a diplomacy check&quot; are valid in their setting.&nbsp; I ask my players to tell me what they do, it doesn't have to be specific, but I don't accept &quot;I make a diplomacy check.&quot; as a valid way to well, make a diplomacy check.They are equal, in their own given contexts.To an extent I agree, as I pointed out, I feel this is subjective to the game.&nbsp; I've been in a few games with REALLY good Role-players, and it can get a little awkward when you're not as good, I don't feel players should be under the gun to well, be professional actors.&nbsp; As for skills vs stat-checks, I'm iffy on this matter, I like skills for certain purposes, but I understand the value of a stat check, and I use those too.&nbsp; I like the &quot;training&quot; side of skills as opposed to a raw strength check, I do see Diplomacy as something more of a skill rather than a raw charisma check.&nbsp; Even uncharismatic folk can often learn how to be diplomatic, they may not be quite as good, but that doesn't mean they can't ever be.And that's really what concerns me with raw stat-checks replacing skill checks, some things in life are really skills.&nbsp; Some things in life are just raw ability, and it's important to draw a line between those two things.&nbsp; EX: I almost always take stealth on any character I make, even paladins, I may never be as good at it as the rogue, but it's something I can work on.&nbsp; My dexterity does not work like that.Sure, for the Bard whose charisma is through the roof, a diplomacy check and a charisma check aren't too far off, especially at lower levels and when we assume a character has only a few points in any skill.&nbsp; But for a fighter, the difference between a Diplomacy check(which that fighter could have just dumped points into), and a Charisma check is a big deal!&nbsp; What it comes down to is that raw stat-checks end up demanding probability-denying levels of MAD.&nbsp; Skill checks only require player choice.Or am I misunderstanding?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 5895976"] This depends on the game, some games are full of theater majors who act out all the funny voices and silly dialog. Some games are not. I think both methods of "making a diplomacy check" are valid in their setting. I ask my players to tell me what they do, it doesn't have to be specific, but I don't accept "I make a diplomacy check." as a valid way to well, make a diplomacy check. They are equal, in their own given contexts. To an extent I agree, as I pointed out, I feel this is subjective to the game. I've been in a few games with REALLY good Role-players, and it can get a little awkward when you're not as good, I don't feel players should be under the gun to well, be professional actors. As for skills vs stat-checks, I'm iffy on this matter, I like skills for certain purposes, but I understand the value of a stat check, and I use those too. I like the "training" side of skills as opposed to a raw strength check, I do see Diplomacy as something more of a skill rather than a raw charisma check. Even uncharismatic folk can often learn how to be diplomatic, they may not be quite as good, but that doesn't mean they can't ever be. And that's really what concerns me with raw stat-checks replacing skill checks, some things in life are really skills. Some things in life are just raw ability, and it's important to draw a line between those two things. EX: I almost always take stealth on any character I make, even paladins, I may never be as good at it as the rogue, but it's something I can work on. My dexterity does not work like that. Sure, for the Bard whose charisma is through the roof, a diplomacy check and a charisma check aren't too far off, especially at lower levels and when we assume a character has only a few points in any skill. But for a fighter, the difference between a Diplomacy check(which that fighter could have just dumped points into), and a Charisma check is a big deal! What it comes down to is that raw stat-checks end up demanding probability-denying levels of MAD. Skill checks only require player choice. Or am I misunderstanding? [/QUOTE]

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