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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5114586" data-attributes="member: 2011">Not hard. Different.Your first two examples here are the same thing. There is no need for a Passive Perception rule for these. The DM just describes the obvious stuff in whatever manner the DM wants to for plot, cinematic, or whatever other reasons.The problem with this approach is that the higher perception characters always spot the hidden thing. There is no mystery. There is no chance for the lower perception PCs to accidently fall in the trap or step on the pressure panel.As a general rule, I've never like auto-successes where there is no active attempt. For example, auto-success on a climb? Fine. The player is actively deciding to climb. Auto-success on a perception? Not so cool. Especially when we are talking about something like a hidden trap. The "in game" designer of the trap went out of his way to make it hidden, but the DM allows an auto-success. That just doesn't sit well with me.If a DM said "Oh yeah, the Elf spots a trap across the room" when the PCs walk in a room, I would wonder "Who designed that trap? Barney Fife???".So a solution where the auto-success is based on proximity gives two possible chances to find it: the perceptive PC gets close enough, or any PC tries Perception and makes the roll. It gives one a real REASON for having the Passive Perception rule at all in the first place.As for active checks, remember, Perception is now a Minor Action. Even a low Perception PC can sometimes afford a minor action in a given round and get lucky.Not that all players will do this, but the option is available.This I think is the real intent of Perception. Find something that is hidden. But, I think foreshadowing has to be done really carefully or the DM might as well just say "Roll Perception".Actually, auto-damage is one of the few reasons for the unfindable case. The unfindable hidden trap outside the findable hidden vault that not only auto-damages the PCs, but also makes them wonder why a trap is just sitting in the middle of a corridor somewhere.But there aren't many good reasons for the DC being so high that the PCs cannot find something hidden. Like you say, why bother?The vast majority of DCs that the DM introduces in the game system should be ones reachable by at least one PC in the party unless it is something special like a slippery cliff that the PCs should be climbing in 10 levels, not today.The issue is that Passive Perception is auto-success and a waste for case #1, auto-success for some PCs in case #2, and not useable in case #3.For all intents and purposes, Passive Perception if used as written is a totally worthless rule. I just add the proximity element to make it worthwhile again.Guess we'll just have to disagree here.</blockquote>

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