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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Amaroq" data-source="post: 5120640" data-attributes="member: 15470">Thanks, K, sorry for misquoting-you-by-implication.Regarding the rest of the conversation, maybe we're right back around to this being a "How the DM is using it" issue. The DM could quite conceivably draw this up as:Secret Door: Not visible to Passive Perception if the party simply enter, walk through, or fight in this room. Requires an active Perception check of X to spot. If the party take a 5-minute rest in the room, a Passive Perception of at least Y will reveal a discolored panel that might convince the party to make an active Perception check. (If multiple characters exceed the target PP, you might roll randomly to determine which one notices it first - but a great DM will have the player who currently looks least engaged find it, as a means to re-engage him or her.)Trap-as-part-of-encounter: Roll Initiative as normal. At the start of their turn, a character with a Passive Perception of X spots the suspicious holes in the wall if adjacent; they need X+2 to spot it from the doorway where they enter the room. When a character "spots" the suspicious holes with his PP, do not reveal it unless it his currently his turn; if it was not his turn, describe the holes to him at the start of his next turn by Initiative order. Characters which make an Active Perception of Y spot the suspicious holes in the wall. Characters with an Active Perception of Z spot the pressure plate which sets off the spear-trap. Late-Arriving Lurker: On the turn in which it reaches the combat, the Lurker rolls Stealth + M to arrive, Concealed, at the edge of the map. Find the first character after the Lurker's initiative whose Passive Perception equals or beats the Stealth roll. At the start of that character's turn, place the Lurker on the battlemat. If the Stealth check beats all players' PP, the Lurker begins its next turn still concealed, unless a character makes an active Perception check and spots him.  . . . I think that tends to address most of the problems described: having two high-Perception characters is still useful, as it lets the party spot the trap or lurker a lot earlier in the round (e.g., with more characters having time to "react" to the information); it also randomizes who feels like they spotted it via the Initiative mechanic. For both the Trap and the Secret Door, we get a Passive Perception "clue" that something isn't as it appears in the room, but both require an Active Perception check to actually find the hidden item.We still have, slightly, the problem of the DM "setting" the required PP number(s), but at that point its much less important; in fact, its almost useful for him to know the highest PP in the party to ensure that he sets the number at or below it.How does that feel to you guys?</blockquote>

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