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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 7989684" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>You do have a wide array of monsters to challenge a PCs. You do have to comply with the tight math. But you can make anything within that math range and challenge the PCs. That's the nice thing about PF2: the math works unlike other editions of D&D and PF where the math really did not work. Even my experience with 5E after all the talk of monsters being tough, they weren't. PCs had plenty of spells and abilities to counter them, especially if you use optional rules like feats and multiclassing. </p><p></p><p>So far in PF2 if you design some orc enemies within that + or -2 range, they both feel like real creatures and are challenging. It's pretty surprising. After playing this game for decades with min-maxers, this has been an incredible surprise. My players are working very hard to trivialize this game and haven't been able to do it. They are literally combing over books to min-max, multiclassing, looking up magic items, and doing everything they can to break the math of the game as they've done with every edition I've played including 5E with astounding success to the point they trivialized 5E within months. </p><p></p><p>But not PF2. They are still getting their butts kicked at lvl 11. The bard died. Every other character went down except the champion and invisible cleric one or more times. The ranger's pet died. And they can't get these things back easily or quickly in PF2. This was in a fight against a CR+2 lich and his stone giant guards. I didn't even need to modify the creatures at all.</p><p></p><p>Color me surprised after playing this game going on four decades. If you check my past posts, min-maxing players has always been a huge problem in my group. I've had to take some extreme measures to challenge them heavily modifying every version of D&D to challenge them. This is the first time I haven't had to do that. I keep waiting for the game to suddenly become trivial as my players figure out the perfect min-max combo. It hasn't happened by lvl 11. If it doesn't happen by lvl 20, then likely it can't be done. We shall see.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 7989684, member: 5834"] You do have a wide array of monsters to challenge a PCs. You do have to comply with the tight math. But you can make anything within that math range and challenge the PCs. That's the nice thing about PF2: the math works unlike other editions of D&D and PF where the math really did not work. Even my experience with 5E after all the talk of monsters being tough, they weren't. PCs had plenty of spells and abilities to counter them, especially if you use optional rules like feats and multiclassing. So far in PF2 if you design some orc enemies within that + or -2 range, they both feel like real creatures and are challenging. It's pretty surprising. After playing this game for decades with min-maxers, this has been an incredible surprise. My players are working very hard to trivialize this game and haven't been able to do it. They are literally combing over books to min-max, multiclassing, looking up magic items, and doing everything they can to break the math of the game as they've done with every edition I've played including 5E with astounding success to the point they trivialized 5E within months. But not PF2. They are still getting their butts kicked at lvl 11. The bard died. Every other character went down except the champion and invisible cleric one or more times. The ranger's pet died. And they can't get these things back easily or quickly in PF2. This was in a fight against a CR+2 lich and his stone giant guards. I didn't even need to modify the creatures at all. Color me surprised after playing this game going on four decades. If you check my past posts, min-maxing players has always been a huge problem in my group. I've had to take some extreme measures to challenge them heavily modifying every version of D&D to challenge them. This is the first time I haven't had to do that. I keep waiting for the game to suddenly become trivial as my players figure out the perfect min-max combo. It hasn't happened by lvl 11. If it doesn't happen by lvl 20, then likely it can't be done. We shall see. [/QUOTE]
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