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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Blue" data-source="post: 7004511" data-attributes="member: 20564">With the exception of the spells and increased HPs these seem to be a touch better than Stone Giants which are CR 7.  AC 17, two attacks at +9 averaging 19.5 each on hits vs. +9 & average hit of 19 and then a touch more from the dog's head  But Stone Giants are only 120 HPs vs. 200, don't have the spells nor the snake bite.  On the other hand, Frost Giants at CR 8 have higher damage than either - considering the enhanced HPs, snake bite, and slightly better saves, CR 8 or maybe 9 seems appropriate for the ones without combat spells.On the other hand five of them had Hold Monster, a 5th level spell, and one Forcecage which is 7th level.  Definitely a decent boost, especially considering that each of the party's actions lost will be a lot more valuable then the action to cast.  Hold Monster, with it's saves every round unlike lower AoEs like Hypnotic Pattern, is not a paragon of 5th level spells, but still can be very effective.For all of that, the numbers make a huge difference in the encounter toughness.  The *cough* chart in the DMG has x2.5 for each in a group of 10.  Which fudging a little  for spells would make this around a 100,000xp encounter, or about 4x the Deadly range.  My personal judgement is more like matching up foes to PCs.  So each level 15 is fighting a CR 8 and a CR 9.  (Estimating 1 use of hold monster to put them in the higher CR and just spread them out.)  Sounds like a good, tough fight where you can't let them focus fire too much on a single PCs.  Looking at it, the warlock got pounded, the cleric got held long past expectations, but no one else is particularly impacted in terms of HPs or other resources lost.Is this the type of evaluation you were asking about?</blockquote>

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