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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kannik" data-source="post: 5465237" data-attributes="member: 984">Iʼd say that given there are example skill challenges in the DMG plus adventures where certain skill uses flat out result in a failure, I’d say a pretty good chance for DMs to realize that not everything has to be a valid path to success.  }<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Note fully taken.  I’ll instead say my point is, then, that I disagree with the assertion (taken partially from another thread you posted in) that 4e encourages a rules-first over story-first playstyle, and that skill challenges (and the OP’s example) are a result or strongly influenced by that.  As a very story- and RP-intensive player and DM I’ve found that 4e has liberated me and my players towards the story over what 3e provided (where many things had been codified in a rule structure*), and many of the things I read in the 4e DMG made me smile and reminded me of my 1e days of DM control.  Of course, there are elements in all editions of (A)D&D that are very rule-first (or game-first) heavy, be it the wandering monster tables or (odd) dungeon design of 1e/2e or the quadruple dipping of prestige classes in 3e.  If the question is “does 4e elicit a more rules-focused style of play than previous editions” then I assert that on the whole it doesn’t.  }<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />* Not counting certain spells (albeit now some/many are rituals) that required lots of GM adjudication, such as wish.  Absolutely, I can see that difference clearly.  In many ways I see it akin to the old sandbox- vs narrative- vs hack- vs epic-arc- style discussions that have been part of the gaming conversation since at least when I started playing in ’87.  Does the DM craft a story that’s irrespective of the PCs or does he create something that follows the PCs?  That published modules were printed with level ranges on their cover shows that the style of campaigns that says “level appropriate challenges are appropriate” existed for a long time.  In this vein, the skill challenge rules and suggested DCs (and the CR rules in 3e, and the XP values in 1e/2e) are just a framework for the DM to work off of and gain an idea of what will challenge the party a certain amount.  Like all frameworks, it will be tweaked and inserted as necessary to suit the campaign and the campaign style.  The way I read pemerton’s examples, the players did something creative and unexpected, and he chose to use DCs and even the skill challenge rules as a framework on how to adjudicate the outcome and create a memorable encounter.  The bear was a tough cookie, so he chose to use level appropriate DCs.  If Steven Hawking (assuming he doesn’t have his exo-suit with him that day… }<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> was suddenly attacked he’d probably be represented by a very weak physical combatant (kobold?) at pemerton’s will.  Whether preplanned or not, a skill challenge needn’t limit nor force anything, nor do I think that the presence of skill challenges, encounter and story XP, page 42 guidelines, or similar encourage or detract from putting either the world or the mechanics first.  Even when compared to previous editions of the game (and for my group it has even liberated story elements). Aaaaand if the DM’s little plot occurred no matter what I did over and over and over again then yeah, I too think that would be a campaign in which I would no longer be a player.  -grins-peace,Kannik</blockquote>

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