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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kannik" data-source="post: 5467920" data-attributes="member: 984">I too would call it fiction first:  the initiation was part of the fiction of the world (and the story being told), the players responded based on their PC’s personalities and abilities, and the rules are a framework to make it a game (with uncertain outcomes).  If you were sitting at the table (which character would you like to play?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />) you would have heard it begin something akin to, “As you emerge from the burning building you hear a commotion to your left;  looking over you see two hooded figures running past a down villager, one throwing the remains of a torch into a planter.”  The players needed little prompting and sprang into action.  In this instance I didn’t mention any details of the skill challenge, I took the first person who spoke as the ‘head’ of initiative and went around the table hearing each PC’s action (in other times I’ve had them roll initiative, especially if it mixes in combat).  How much am I using the Skill Challenge framework?  Completely:  the PCs must make rolls against skills that I think will forward the action (the fighter tried to intimidate the guys to stop – it only made them run faster so a failure despite (or due to <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />) his good roll) against DCs set by the level (ie skill of) of the villains, the party had to acquire X number of successes before reaching Y number of failures, and there was an outcome for both succeeding (capture) or failing (escape).  I didn’t write it out fully beforehand but I used the SC rules to create it and work it out on the fly.  In some cases I’ll be more explicit – something akin to PirateCat’s example in one of the two threads about this topic that I've been reading the past few days and that I can't find right now or else I would link to it directly <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />.Now, could a skilled DM do this before 4e?  Sure – I’ve never seen SCs as something exactly revolutionary just a standardized way of adjudicating challenges, scenes, skills or events that require more than one skill roll.   And I found it useful for both novice and expert DMs – novice DMs may not immediately think “oh, I can need a bunch of skill rolls and player roles to get to success for this chase/building a boat/overland travel/diplomatic interaction,” and for the expert DM it is a great framework to guide how tough and how long to run a challenge.  (for the latter I have sometimes run the challenge a success early or late to let a particularly spectacular action be the end, for cinematic reasons <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />) And this is the golden key.  }<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  All DMs I’ve played with, from 1e to 4e have had differing ways they approached the game, running the gamut from rules-intensive to rules-transparent.  And, more often than not the novice DMs (myself included) had the rules up front.  Heh, it’s kind of like driving a car with a manual transmission:  when you’re starting out you’re thinking about the ‘rules’ of the clutch/shifter and you jerk around a lot, as you get familiar with both the ‘rules’ and also the way the car handles and the flow of traffic and etc you don’t even think or notice anymore you’re shifting, you focus on where you want to go and let the mechanics/car do its thing to empower you to get there.Of course, differing play groups also have their different styles.  One group I know loves playing Hackmaster to the hilt with the rules (and tropes) to the forefront.  That IS the game to them when they’re playing Hackmaster.  When they play D&D though they’re not nearly as focused on the rules. Do skill challenges themselves encourage a rules- first or fiction-first mindset?  I would argue neither.  Did the presentation they are given in DMG1 and various adventures do that?  That’s a whole different question.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />  I think certain examples were given that were very explicit “this is a skill challenge!” so that the players would get to learn the mechanic (just like the players know how combat works, and general skill use works, to know the subsystem of skill challenges was deemed important) and that became rutted in the mind as the definitive example(s) of how to run an SC.  So it's great that we're having these conversations and can see the breadth of possibilities available within an SC!  (and the rest of the game's systems, for that matter) }<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />peace,Kannik</blockquote>

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