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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6141905" data-attributes="member: 6688937">For better or worse, a lot of people seem to feel that way about 4e. I have no real idea why, just a lot of vague suspicions. (Including art-styles!) The OSR grognards in my current group constantly surprise me with things they feel are important about Old-School Play. Like me, they had played 3e happily for a few years before getting bogged down in the fiddly bits (although they have more derogatory terms for it now).I think most folks saw 3e as expanding AD&D's attack resolution into skills (which is how it was advertised). Since Non-Weapon Proficiencies, Secondary skills,  Thieving skills, and the mechanical miscellany (Surprise, Bend Bars, etc.) that became 3e skill checks had never been terribly consistent across the previous incarnations of the game that change didn't really strike people as "critical" and counted as "inheriting" it. To some extent "attribute + skill", at least in the attack roll, is a D&D invention. I've seen several authors credit or accuse D&D of setting that as the standard for how people think that rpgs "should" work. I know in the FATE/FUDGE community, we see a lot of de-programming in that regard. I think that there were other mechanical changes that had far more profound, yet subtle, impacts on the gameplay and feel (initiative + casting interruption top my list).I suspect that (like pre-WotC incarnations) 3e is easier to play "sloppy" and thus more people could still see in it (or make of it) what they wanted by running rough-shod over the rules. Even if this is merely a psychological impression, I think it may have had profound impact on 4e's reception.While I've read your thoughts about Moldvay Basic's flavour text before, I'm not sure what you mean by "hit point heroic fantasy" model or it being generalized across across action resolution in 4e.</blockquote>

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