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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3156770" data-attributes="member: 18280">Said with full knowledge, of course, that nearly anyone reading your OP would belive that this already was an "edition X sucks" thread (in this case, where edition X is 1e).   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> When I look at this document, I see a whole lot of white space, a lot of citations, and a large number of examples.  The document starts with surprise and encounter distance rules, and does not address initiative until page 4.  To be generous, let us say that initiative begins with item III, rather than item IV.  The font appears to be size 8.I also note that these initiative rules are designed to cover all special cases, as well as a large number of related combat rules (such as "Encumbered creatures cannot charge" and the rules relating to the effects of charging on AC).  This would be as though the Initiative rules in 3e listed every special case that could effect init, including those from every splatbook (if any).When I performed a Cut & Paste, ignoring citations, the Initiative rules took less than 4 full pages, even before I fixed the formatting.  Word count lists 3,069 words (including all examples).  "Examples" in this context include things likeYrag eyed his elven companion skeptically. “Specialists? Bah! In my day, we didn’t have no stinkin’ specialists. All weapons did the same amount of damage. You either knew how to use one, or you didn‘t.” Just then, a group of gnolls rounded a bend up ahead. Neither side was surprised, but the elf had an arrow nocked and readied, and loosed it before Yrag even knew what was happening. To Yrag’s astonishment, the elf fired two more arrows thereafter, hitting and killing three gnolls. “Gee, I only got two with my sword.  Tell me about this specialization thing again…”which are clearly there more for fun than for any elucidation of the rules.  Let's say that we dump the examples and examine just the rules.  I am now down to 2 pages (still without fixing the formatting, which is causing lines to split) and 1,568 words.  At this point, I have not removed any "related information" included in the initiative rules, such as "6. The spell caster cannot use his or her dexterity bonus to avoid being hit during spell casting; doing so interrupts the spell." and "7. Any successful attack, or non-saved-against attack, upon the spell caster interrupts the spell."I will certainly agree that this is still more work than should be required for rolling initiative, it is certainly not 10 pages worth of initiative rules.  By ignoring page content, and focusing on the number of pages used (how large is the combat chapters in the 3.5 PHB & DMG, combined, and in what font size, and how many words?) it becomes clear how wrong the assertation buzz made above is.Strawman stuff, indeed.   <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> If "starting another 3e vs. 1e debate" isn't the purpose of the OP, then I don't know what is....unless it is simply to make a statement about 1e and hope that no one will answer that statement (and hence, no debate  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ).I certainly agree with buzz when he says that "1e was a glorious mess."  However, this thread seems to exist merely to make it seem as though 1e was a larger mess....and far less glorious....than it acutally was/is.RC</blockquote>

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