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AD&D/O.S.R.I.C: Creating XP Progression for Homebrewed Classes
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6926981" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I agree. Part of the reason I've been hesitant to agree with your bard is lackluster assessment is it wasn't clear to me that you didn't start the game at 1,000,000 XP, and wasn't sure you'd actually experienced leveling up the bard alongside other classes. If you were going to play an end game, let's build the most powerful character we can build for 2,000,000 XP or more, then bard while pretty decent probably wouldn't be even a 5th choice. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Which, yes, would be one of the more optimal builds you can make, assuming you have the 15+ Str, 15+ Wis to pull it off. It's also one of the better builds you can play if you don't get at least one 16, and don't have the overall good but not great stats to qualify for Ranger.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure it is a myth. Yes, they pick up the benefits of dual-classing (or actually, triple classing in this case), but that's an argument for their power not against it. The power of the bard comes from the fact that once switching to bard, they level up at about twice the rate of other classes resulting in a very rapid accumulation of HD and obtaining 'name level' at about the same time as their peers despite working on their third class. After they max out their HD, sure, they start to lose ground compared to full-caster classes, and as you apparently played until max level, then by then if you were competing with 17th+ level casters in the party and 15th+ plus level fighter subclasses, the bard probably felt a bit lackluster. But that doesn't change that Bard is one of 1e's 'valid builds', that you should be aiming for when you build a character. For one thing, if you went 1-23 straight up, it probably did take 10 years playing weekly and very few campaigns last that long. I joined a preexisting campaign when it had hit 7th level and 5 years later I'd hit 13th. </p><p></p><p>But I still see 1e AD&D as largely over by 10th or 11th level without heavy DM improvisation just because nothing in the game that was published at the time really can adequately challenge the players. By 15th level, you are ready for pretty much any end game you'd want versus any BBEG you'd want, and really you've probably needed to move over to dynastic/political/military play. A party of 6-8 15th+ level characters can easily generate 400 damage a round unless the DM has kept exceptionally tight control on the available equipment, PC ability scores, and so forth. The sort of things that can challenge PC's of that level are very limited, and the DM would be forced to make a lot of stuff up. Sure, I've beat up junior high kids 33rd level paladins with just a few simple monsters, just to show them that their was more to the game than flipping to entries in the Deities and Demigods and beating up foes in a 30'x40' room with a flat floor, but those were very young players with limited experience that hadn't really 'earned' their characters. </p><p></p><p>I'd honestly love to hear about adventuring at 23rd level. I've only ran into one other person at EnWorld that claimed to have a positive experience with 1e AD&D in a campaign at 18th+ level, and that was in a group that eschewed Unearthed Arcana and had a DM that kept magic items very tightly in check. (He was shocked when I showed him the math on what optimized builds could do, especially post UA.) Even so, by that point he was up against the Demon Lords and other most potent published foes in the game. What were you doing playing at above that level for years?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6926981, member: 4937"] I agree. Part of the reason I've been hesitant to agree with your bard is lackluster assessment is it wasn't clear to me that you didn't start the game at 1,000,000 XP, and wasn't sure you'd actually experienced leveling up the bard alongside other classes. If you were going to play an end game, let's build the most powerful character we can build for 2,000,000 XP or more, then bard while pretty decent probably wouldn't be even a 5th choice. Which, yes, would be one of the more optimal builds you can make, assuming you have the 15+ Str, 15+ Wis to pull it off. It's also one of the better builds you can play if you don't get at least one 16, and don't have the overall good but not great stats to qualify for Ranger. I'm not sure it is a myth. Yes, they pick up the benefits of dual-classing (or actually, triple classing in this case), but that's an argument for their power not against it. The power of the bard comes from the fact that once switching to bard, they level up at about twice the rate of other classes resulting in a very rapid accumulation of HD and obtaining 'name level' at about the same time as their peers despite working on their third class. After they max out their HD, sure, they start to lose ground compared to full-caster classes, and as you apparently played until max level, then by then if you were competing with 17th+ level casters in the party and 15th+ plus level fighter subclasses, the bard probably felt a bit lackluster. But that doesn't change that Bard is one of 1e's 'valid builds', that you should be aiming for when you build a character. For one thing, if you went 1-23 straight up, it probably did take 10 years playing weekly and very few campaigns last that long. I joined a preexisting campaign when it had hit 7th level and 5 years later I'd hit 13th. But I still see 1e AD&D as largely over by 10th or 11th level without heavy DM improvisation just because nothing in the game that was published at the time really can adequately challenge the players. By 15th level, you are ready for pretty much any end game you'd want versus any BBEG you'd want, and really you've probably needed to move over to dynastic/political/military play. A party of 6-8 15th+ level characters can easily generate 400 damage a round unless the DM has kept exceptionally tight control on the available equipment, PC ability scores, and so forth. The sort of things that can challenge PC's of that level are very limited, and the DM would be forced to make a lot of stuff up. Sure, I've beat up junior high kids 33rd level paladins with just a few simple monsters, just to show them that their was more to the game than flipping to entries in the Deities and Demigods and beating up foes in a 30'x40' room with a flat floor, but those were very young players with limited experience that hadn't really 'earned' their characters. I'd honestly love to hear about adventuring at 23rd level. I've only ran into one other person at EnWorld that claimed to have a positive experience with 1e AD&D in a campaign at 18th+ level, and that was in a group that eschewed Unearthed Arcana and had a DM that kept magic items very tightly in check. (He was shocked when I showed him the math on what optimized builds could do, especially post UA.) Even so, by that point he was up against the Demon Lords and other most potent published foes in the game. What were you doing playing at above that level for years? [/QUOTE]
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