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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 5551389" data-attributes="member: 3400">I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt about much of your perspective about 1e vs 3e, up to a point. But there comes a point when you become simply factually incorrect. In 1e, Hear Noise is not at all limited to thieves and assassins. It's a thief skill but that's mainly because they're the only class in 1e that gets better at it not because nobody else can do it. See page 60 of the DMG.Characters of other classes, such as halflings and elves, can move silently without being thieves or assassins as well. In fact, that halfling fighter in leather armor is much better at sneaking around than the low-level thief. See pages 16-17 of the PH. I won't even get into elven boots.But this isn't to say that other classes have particularly significant ability to do some of these things across the board. Rather, I'm trying to point out that 1e has general rules and plenty of exceptions, too many to be so glib about the way character classes are expected to be played.You are also simply mistaken about the use of many 3e skills and checks. Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Listen, Spot, and other skill checks have a DC determined by an opposing check, not just a free-wheeling number arbitrarily set by the DM. Other skills like Open locks may not actually be tried by just anyone, but may only be tried by a character trained in the skills. Granted, any character can learn those skills, but it's the rogues who typically have the easiest time at it in the various iterations of 3e, 3.5e, PF, and 4e.Other checks you list are as mistaken as the ones I mention above. Breaking down a simple door has a DC of 13. Bending iron bars - DC 24. Lifting a gate - DC 25. None of those values are any bit more (or less) free-wheeling than those in 1e.The question of whether a 1e game or a 3e game is more free wheeling is a judgment call. But if your approach to 1e is defined along such rigid use of rules and tables as you suggest above, how does a character go foraging for food? Fishing? Hunting? Climbing trees or mountains? How about getting caught in a lie by a suspicious guardsman at the gate? 1e has plenty of areas of adventuring life NOT covered by any rules, whereas many of these are touched upon in 3e. That's a significant reason 1e is considered more free-wheeling than 3e - there are large gaps in the rules in which DMs must adjudicate the results of PC decisions on the fly without defined rules. Some DMs thrive on that, some don't. I don't think either game is necessarily better than the other as a result, just different. But you have a highly idiosyncratic interpretation of the difference between the two games.</blockquote>

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