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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1430080" data-attributes="member: 5777">Because the discussion is whether or not the extra sorc level warrents a full +1 CR. Pc's are done completely differently, and dragons are pretty top teir.I will state it again though.The dragon is CR 14, you add a level of sorc and make it CR 15. How about you do it again? one more level, CR 16.Now, let us compare your dragon + 2 sorc levels to the dragons big brother, who is also CR 16.Mature adult Size H  HD 22d12+110 (253) + 2d4+10 = 270avgStr 27 Dex 10 Con 21 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 14BAB/Grapple+22/+38 Attack +28 Fort +18 Ref +13 Will +17 Breath 14d4 (26) Fright 23Move 60 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft. Initiative +0AC 29 (–2 size,+21 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 29 Special Immune to acid, water breathing, darkness, corrupt water, DR 10/magic    Caster level 7th SR 21extra skill points 8Old Size H HD 25d12+125 (287) Str 29 Dex 10 Con 21 Int 14 Wis 15 Cha 14BAB/Grapple +25/+42 Attack +32Fort +19 Ref +14 Will +16 Breath 16d4 (27) Fright 24Move 60 ft., fly 150 ft. (poor), swim 60 ft. Initiative +0AC 32 (–2 size,+24 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 32Special Immune to acid, water breathing, darkness, corrupt water, DR 10/magic, Plant growthCaster level 7thSR 22extra skill points 24So the older brother has 17 more hp (from his 3 more hd), more str, +3 BAB, +1 fort, +1 ref, -1 will, +2d4 breath, +1 to its save, +1 to the fright save, a 3rd level spell to use, 3 more AC, the same caster level, one more point of SR, and 16 more skill points with 1 more max rank possible.Looks like big brother wins in just about every way. Most of those effects are worth several spell slots all on their own, but they are permanent and cannot be dispelled. Some of the benefits are worth way more than even a few 3rd level spell slots.17hp? 2nd level spell slot, more str? somewhere around 2nd as well (better than bulls strength because it is not a typed bonus), +3 bab something like a 5th level slot, the saves are a wash (the next age category was the big save jumps, +2 to each, this level was only +1 to each, still respectable though), more breath weapon damage (worth way more than an extra third level slot, especially with that higher save), 3 more ac is better than the 2nd level slot for barkskin, SAME caster level, more SR (always good to have), and 16 skill points! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Seems pretty clear to me. Mileage will always vary, but the big brother is certainly much better. Much, much better.</blockquote>

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