adding templates and ECL

[jontherev]

Howdy, I'm a noob DM trying to make the recurring villain, a 1st level half-fiendish doppleganger rogue. This seems a bit much to me, but according to the MM, this is an ECL 13 (4 for racial HD, 4 for adjustment, 4 for template, 1 for class level). Is this right? I'm sorry, but a 13th level fighter would level this monster in about 2 rounds (possibly 1 round) at most without taking any damage most likely.

Also, this would be a CR of 7 (3 for base creature, +1 for good ability scores, +2 for template, +1 for class level).

I guess I'm a little confused as to the relationship between ECL and CR. So, can I legally equip this monster as a 13th level character and still keep this same CR?

My main goal is to make a villain who can spy on them well and taunt them until around 10th level. I don't want to kill them, and I don't want them to kill this monster until after 10th level. I've given these 1st level characters very powerful intelligent items at 1st level along with high abilities, and I want to make sure this creature will survive, but also without a TPK. Thanks for any help.

 

[Pyrex]

Looks right to me, ECL 13 / CR7.

Yeah, in a "fair" one-on-one fight a L13 Ftr would eat him for breakfast.

However, that's not what ECL measures.

Over the course of the campaign, a Half-fiend doppleganger rogue would contribute as much to the overall success of the party as said L13 Ftr.

*That's* what the ECL is supposed to measure.

If you want him to be an effective opponent at 10th level, (as opposed to a balanced party member) up him to Rog 5, making him CR 11.

If the party will be fighting him all my himself, you could probably even make him Rog 7.

In either case he shouldn't have quite as much equipment as an equivalent-ECL PC, but be equipped as an equivalent-ECL NPC.

 

[Lorgrom]

I guess I'm a little confused as to the relationship between ECL and CR. So, can I legally equip this monster as a 13th level character and still keep this same CR?

Welcome to the wonderful world of DMing.

Basicaly there is no relationship between ECL and CR. ECL are primarly used to gauge PCs against each other.

While CR is a guage to determin what level a party (set of 4 PCs) should handle with roughly 20% of there resources used.

Since the NPC you are wanting to make, would be the BBEG (big bad evil guy). I would give it the wealth of a 13th (or even higher) character.

 

[jontherev]

Looks right to me, ECL 13 / CR7.

Yeah, in a "fair" one-on-one fight a L13 Ftr would eat him for breakfast.

However, that's not what ECL measures.

Over the course of the campaign, a Half-fiend doppleganger rogue would contribute as much to the overall success of the party as said L13 Ftr.

*That's* what the ECL is supposed to measure.

If you want him to be an effective opponent at 10th level, (as opposed to a balanced party member) up him to Rog 5, making him CR 11.

If the party will be fighting him all my himself, you could probably even make him Rog 7.

In either case he shouldn't have quite as much equipment as an equivalent-ECL PC, but be equipped as an equivalent-ECL NPC.

Thanks, that was very helpful. I plan to bring this creature in while they are still only like 2nd level and I want him to be able to get away, but without killing the party. I probably start him out at Rogue 3, and then bump him up accordingly each time they meet.

 

[jontherev]

Welcome to the wonderful world of DMing.

Basicaly there is no relationship between ECL and CR. ECL are primarly used to gauge PCs against each other.

While CR is a guage to determin what level a party (set of 4 PCs) should handle with roughly 20% of there resources used.

Since the NPC you are wanting to make, would be the BBEG (big bad evil guy). I would give it the wealth of a 13th (or even higher) character.

Thanks. He's actually not quite the BBEG. He'll be reporting to the "real" BBEG, who I haven't even thought of yet...probably a demon wizard or lich or something else fun.

 

[Kafkonia]

I'm sorry, but a 13th level fighter would level this monster in about 2 rounds (possibly 1 round) at most without taking any damage most likely.

I just wanted to add that if you're a half-fiendish doppelganger rogue, there is no way you should be in combat with a 13th level fighter -- you're all about sneaking, lying, and sneaking some more.

 

[jontherev]

I just wanted to add that if you're a half-fiendish doppelganger rogue, there is no way you should be in combat with a 13th level fighter -- you're all about sneaking, lying, and sneaking some more.

Right you are. I plan to use this guy to taunt and spy on my players, reporting back to the "real" BBEG. If you saw the items I gave the players at 1st level, you'd see why. They're basically all artifacts. I used the intelligent items rules and modified them so that they "grow" with the characters, only to find out that eerily similar rules exist in UA. Anyway, they have good reason to have someone powerful looking for them.

 

[Pyrex]

I just wanted to add that if you're a half-fiendish doppelganger rogue, there is no way you should be in combat with a 13th level fighter -- you're all about sneaking, lying, and sneaking some more.

Exactly. Max out Hide, Move Silent, Spot, Listen and possibly even Sense Motive. Also consider spending skill ranks to learn additional languages; you want to be able to understand the PC's when you're eavesdropping with Detect Thoughts.

Then equip him with an Elven Cloak, Elven Boots (or armor with the Silent Moves and Shadow enhancements), and some Dust of Dissappearance in case he actually does wind up in combat.

 

[Pyrex]

Another option occured to me. Once you hit Rog3 (or, if you want to play up his fiendish heritage a bit with a couple more dirty tricks, Rog1 / Warlock 2), start taking Shadowdancer levels.

Hide in Plain Sight is too good to pass up for a master spy.