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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Adjudicating Immediate actions
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 2835734" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>I respectfully disagree. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p>I consider the (game mechanics) resolution of an action to be separate from the action. The action has happened. Now we roll dice to see what happened.</p><p></p><p>This is not the action. This is the determination of the result or resolution of the action.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The moment the spell is cast, the mechanics of the resolution are then handled. Damage dice are rolled, Saving Throws are rolled, the Saving Throw for Massive Damage is rolled, etc.</p><p></p><p>This is all resolution. It is game mechanics dice decision making. It has nothing to do with the action per se, the action has already happened. We are now just using game mechanic rules and dice to figure out what actually happened. And characters do not do this, players do. Characters do actions. Players do resolution.</p><p></p><p>Ditto for To Hit. To Hit rolls, Damage rolls, Critical rolls, Trip rolls, AoOs, etc. are all part of resolution. Some of these specifically state that a decision can be made at this time. For example, if you fail in your trip, some weapons allow you to drop your weapon instead of being counter-tripped.</p><p></p><p>But, unless the rules state that a decision or action can be made during resolution, it should not be allowed.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Action Points specifically allow you to make a decision after a To Hit or Saving Throw is made. Immediate Actions do not as a general rule. A specific Immediate Action might, but not in general.</p><p></p><p>Special Attacks often have special rules that can interrupt Resolution. As long as they state that, fine.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is totally different than interrupting an action. Interrupting an action is things using Spell Craft while the caster is casting a spell. You are not YET at the resolution phase (for want of a better phrase). It is still the Action phase (again, for want of a better phrase).</p><p></p><p>Or, AoOing during Movement.</p><p></p><p>Movement, by definition, is a segmented action where you have "mini-resolutions" within the action itself. You move 5 feet. Does anything happen? Yes/No. You move another 5 feet. Does anything happen? Yes/No. etc.</p><p></p><p>But, very few actions are segmented like this. There is no "Pull out material components" phase of a spell, "Start somatic gestures" phase, "Start Verbal portion" phase, etc.</p><p></p><p>There is "casting the spell" and "resolving what happens with the spell".</p><p></p><p>You can interrupt "casting the spell" with an AoO, a Readied Action, an Immediate Action, etc.</p><p></p><p>But, once resolution starts, you cannot interrupt it unless a specific game mechanic explicitly allows for it.</p><p></p><p>Ditto for combat. Once the "To Hit" dice are rolled, that's it. Any game mechanic that allows you to interrupt this does so. Anything which does not explicitly allow this, does not.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, there are no specific rules for this. This is an opinion of mine, just like yours is an opinion that you can cast an Immediate spell between the To Hit roll and the Damage roll.</p><p></p><p>So, why is my opinion more reasonable or more consistent with the rules than yours?</p><p></p><p>Because it more closely follows the only Interrupt rules that we do have: Readied Actions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your interpretation allows for the interruption of dice rolling. Mine does not. Dice rolling is not a character's activities. It is a player's (or DM's) activities (to determine resolution).</p><p></p><p>Additionally, the Ready Action rules (both the DMG page 25 and the PHB page 160) always discuss interrupting actions. Not once does the Ready Action sections discuss interrupting dice rolling or other resolution mechanics. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Your interpretation also allows for metagaming. Instead of "I cast my Immediate spell if she starts casting a spell" (similar to the examples in the DMG), yours could be "I cast my Immediate spell if the player picks up a D20 and rolls a to hit with her spell.".</p><p></p><p>See the difference?</p><p></p><p>Yours is game mechanics based (metagaming based), mine is action based (in character based).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, I understand that you are trying to squeeze in a "decision point" "between the point in time when the Axe connects and it does actual damage", but nothing in the game really is that fast. For example, you do not get AoOs when someone casts a Swift Spell or an Immediate Spell or a Quickened Spell. By the time you know it has happened, it has happened.</p><p></p><p>Ditto for an Instantaneous spell. By the time you know that a "bead streaks from the pointing digit", the Fireball has already exploded. You have to interrupt the spell caster BEFORE the bead flies through the air because the spell is Instantaneous.</p><p></p><p>This is the same reason you cannot Dispel an Instantaneous spell, even with a Readied Action. You can Counterspell with a Dispel, but you cannot Dispel. You are counterspelling while the spell is being cast, you are not Dispelling while the "bead streaks from the pointing digit".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 2835734, member: 2011"] I respectfully disagree. ;) I consider the (game mechanics) resolution of an action to be separate from the action. The action has happened. Now we roll dice to see what happened. This is not the action. This is the determination of the result or resolution of the action. The moment the spell is cast, the mechanics of the resolution are then handled. Damage dice are rolled, Saving Throws are rolled, the Saving Throw for Massive Damage is rolled, etc. This is all resolution. It is game mechanics dice decision making. It has nothing to do with the action per se, the action has already happened. We are now just using game mechanic rules and dice to figure out what actually happened. And characters do not do this, players do. Characters do actions. Players do resolution. Ditto for To Hit. To Hit rolls, Damage rolls, Critical rolls, Trip rolls, AoOs, etc. are all part of resolution. Some of these specifically state that a decision can be made at this time. For example, if you fail in your trip, some weapons allow you to drop your weapon instead of being counter-tripped. But, unless the rules state that a decision or action can be made during resolution, it should not be allowed. Action Points specifically allow you to make a decision after a To Hit or Saving Throw is made. Immediate Actions do not as a general rule. A specific Immediate Action might, but not in general. Special Attacks often have special rules that can interrupt Resolution. As long as they state that, fine. This is totally different than interrupting an action. Interrupting an action is things using Spell Craft while the caster is casting a spell. You are not YET at the resolution phase (for want of a better phrase). It is still the Action phase (again, for want of a better phrase). Or, AoOing during Movement. Movement, by definition, is a segmented action where you have "mini-resolutions" within the action itself. You move 5 feet. Does anything happen? Yes/No. You move another 5 feet. Does anything happen? Yes/No. etc. But, very few actions are segmented like this. There is no "Pull out material components" phase of a spell, "Start somatic gestures" phase, "Start Verbal portion" phase, etc. There is "casting the spell" and "resolving what happens with the spell". You can interrupt "casting the spell" with an AoO, a Readied Action, an Immediate Action, etc. But, once resolution starts, you cannot interrupt it unless a specific game mechanic explicitly allows for it. Ditto for combat. Once the "To Hit" dice are rolled, that's it. Any game mechanic that allows you to interrupt this does so. Anything which does not explicitly allow this, does not. Now, there are no specific rules for this. This is an opinion of mine, just like yours is an opinion that you can cast an Immediate spell between the To Hit roll and the Damage roll. So, why is my opinion more reasonable or more consistent with the rules than yours? Because it more closely follows the only Interrupt rules that we do have: Readied Actions. Your interpretation allows for the interruption of dice rolling. Mine does not. Dice rolling is not a character's activities. It is a player's (or DM's) activities (to determine resolution). Additionally, the Ready Action rules (both the DMG page 25 and the PHB page 160) always discuss interrupting actions. Not once does the Ready Action sections discuss interrupting dice rolling or other resolution mechanics. Your interpretation also allows for metagaming. Instead of "I cast my Immediate spell if she starts casting a spell" (similar to the examples in the DMG), yours could be "I cast my Immediate spell if the player picks up a D20 and rolls a to hit with her spell.". See the difference? Yours is game mechanics based (metagaming based), mine is action based (in character based). Now, I understand that you are trying to squeeze in a "decision point" "between the point in time when the Axe connects and it does actual damage", but nothing in the game really is that fast. For example, you do not get AoOs when someone casts a Swift Spell or an Immediate Spell or a Quickened Spell. By the time you know it has happened, it has happened. Ditto for an Instantaneous spell. By the time you know that a "bead streaks from the pointing digit", the Fireball has already exploded. You have to interrupt the spell caster BEFORE the bead flies through the air because the spell is Instantaneous. This is the same reason you cannot Dispel an Instantaneous spell, even with a Readied Action. You can Counterspell with a Dispel, but you cannot Dispel. You are counterspelling while the spell is being cast, you are not Dispelling while the "bead streaks from the pointing digit". [/QUOTE]
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