Adjust EL for underequiped PC's

[Brother MacLaren]

In terms of remedying the magic item shortage... do they have cash and the ability to buy the components necessary for crafting magic items? If so, encourage them to take the item creation feats. Or perhaps the next time they kill, say, a Behir, the wizard makes a Spellcraft check to recognize that its horns and teeth can be used to make magical items... so these things count as crafting components worth a few thousand GP.

As to the EL, I'd use encounters of EL equal or +1 if using 32-pt buy, equal if using 28-pt buy and they are caster-heavy, or EL -1 if they are using 28-pt and not caster-heavy or using 25-pt buy. But NPCs are poorly equipped relative to PCs, so I'd use NPCs of EL +1 or +2. The DMG NPC Ftr8 has +1 armor, +1 shield, +1 melee weapon, and a masterwork ranged weapon.

 

[Hussar]

So if they all had the best items in the examples (which they obviously don't) then they still need 3 grand of other items.

Oh true. But, the problems at this level are not so much. They have magic weapons, albeit somewhat weaker ones, so DR isn't an issue. The differences are essentially only a couple of points here or there.

Where they get hurt is in the single use item department which can really make a difference. The permanent items at this level aren't all that powerful, so, the difference between a +1 sword and a +1 sword with gauntlets of ogre power isn't a vast gulf.

In other words, while they might be on the weaker end of 8th, they are still much stronger than a fully loaded 7th.

 

[MerricB]

With 5 PCs and slightly underpowered equipment, you're still at APL 8. The 5th PC makes up for their (slightly) weaker equipment.

Cheers!

 

[delericho]

I don't think there's an easy formula you can apply to ELs to find a suitable challenge. The problem is that there are some encounters that will only be slightly harder (the AC is a bit higher, the HP are a bit higher, but otherwise it's about the same), and there are some encounters that your party may well be totally unequipped to deal with (e.g. any flying creature where the group has little or no flight magic, creatures with DR of types the party can't beat...)

So, I think you need to eyeball challenges on a case-by-case basis. If you're still doing XP-by-CR, you might even think about re-assigning the CRs of some creatures to more accurately reflect their challenge to your group. (Of course, if you do that, then the new CRs will generate a new and 'accurate' EL for your group.)

 

[Emirikol]

We're at level 15 for our low-magic campaign (DUNGEON's AGE OF WORMS set in Hyboria). The EL's are nearly perfectly balanced for a regular game.

Typically we had been playing with 25% of normal wealth and the PC's weren't having any trouble at all as long as there were 5 players. Once we reached about 13th level, we bumped to 50% of normal. That was an adequate change too. We just played Lost Temple of Demogorgon with 4 players at 50% wealth (max 1/4th single item) and the group didn't lose a soul.

One caveat: there are some "autistic gamers" out there who have great difficulty modifying on the fly and who will try to tell you that if you don't play rules as written that you're somehow going to cause them to have a seizure and a spaz-attack. Don't be one of those people. Modifying on the fly is not brain surgery.

I'm of the opinion that although MI's are fun, they coddle players and make them not use their noggins.

jh

 

[Mark CMG]

Ok, so I give out less magic items than should be considered 'normal', and I don't have 'magic shops' in my campaign(s). (this is the immediate result of converting a RCD&D campaign to 3.5)

Any ideas on how to adjust EL's for this kind of campaign?

For an indication: I have 5 characters, average level 8, and they have +1, some +2 weapons, +1 or +2 armor, and no 'boosting' items.

I plan to introduce some of these in the next adventure, but until they have them: What would be a challenging encounter? should I reduce the EL by approximately 1? more? any ideas?

Herzog

There might be some encounters for which they are just fine. For all encounters, even when I think my PCs are fine, I first look to DR, then to SR, then to Special Attacks/Qualities, then to any items of the creatures and NPCs in the encounter to make sure the PCs have some way of overcoming it. That's especially important if you know for a fact that the group is not equipped in the same way as a (so-called) standard party. A lot of the rest of the given advice follows, IMO, but I think it helps to wrap your head around these conditions first, as a starting point.

 

[Mark CMG]

I think Wulf reinforces the point of needing to examine things specifically from the PC side moreso than looking directly to the CR versus party level here -

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=191811&

Whether or not you can bypass DR, whether or not you can hit intangible creatures, whether or not you can fly, whether or not you can X, Y, Z. Fill in the blanks.

Now, if you ask whether the CR system cares whether or not your fighter has spent 8000 gp on:

a) +2 sword
b) +1 sword, +2 full plate, +1 ring of protection
c) 160 potions of cure light wounds
d) 8000 gp worth of ale and whores

... the answer is no. Its powers of discretion are simply not granular enough.

More to the point, there's no possible way to know exactly what that wealth has been spent on, so it is impossible to quantify what effect that wealth has on CR.

Furthermore, the number and type of tangible bonuses you can achieve within the d20 system, within the confines of the wealth guidelines, simply aren't significant indicators of CR. They are most significant at low level, comprising a larger relative portion of total CR.

(. . .)

Generally speaking, as character level increases, the impact of wealth on CR decreases.

 

[Hussar]

If I'm reading that quote right, Wulf seems to be arguing that high level PC's don't need magic goodies as much as low level PC's. Or rather, the effect of that gear at high levels is less.

If that's right, then I disagree. At 7th level, with 19k gp, the difference between a fully loaded fighter and a 1/4 wealth fighter is not all that great. Less than a full level certainly. Heck, differences in point buy can make the difference. At 15th level, OTOH, there's miles between those two characters. The 15th level fully loaded PC is at least a level ahead, if not more.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

If I'm reading that quote right, Wulf seems to be arguing that high level PC's don't need magic goodies as much as low level PC's. Or rather, the effect of that gear at high levels is less.

Simply by nature of the d20 system.

Let's take, for example, a Cloak of Resistance +3 found at 8th level and kept until 20th level.

At 8th level, a +3 bonus represents 33% of this character's "good" save and 60% of his "poor" save. (6+3=9 and 2+3=5, respectively.)

At 20th level, that same cloak represents 20% of his "good" save and 30% of his "poor" save. (12+3=15 and 6+3=9, respectively.)

Remember, we're talking about Sundering an item here and there, not stripping all the wealth off a character (or an entire party) at once.

If that's right, then I disagree. At 7th level, with 19k gp, the difference between a fully loaded fighter and a 1/4 wealth fighter is not all that great. Less than a full level certainly.

Wow, you've sundered the hell out of that poor schmuck. But let's see...

I'd put them at CR7 and CR6; in terms of power, 49 and 35. This puts the low-wealth fighter at a little over 70% of the combat output of the full-equipped character.

In terms of EL, that's a difference of perhaps 1 EL.

At 15th level, OTOH, there's miles between those two characters. The 15th level fully loaded PC is at least a level ahead, if not more.

Actually, the ratio of power-to-power will be about the same, but the difference in EL will actually be decreased. A difference of 1 CR means more at low levels than it does at high levels.

Let me cut through the math and put it to you this way:

Who is at the greatest disadvantage?

A 1st level fighter against a 2nd level fighter?

A 7th level fighter against an 8th level fighter?

Or a 15th level fighter against a 16th level fighter?

Remember, there's only a difference of 1 CR in all cases.

The reason for this is because as CR increases, the amount of your total power that you can actually bring to bear within the economy of actions is limited. A higher level character can do more things, and he can do all things better, but he can't do significantly more per action than his foe. A greater proportion of his total power (his total CR) is comprised of things that he may never actually use within the confines of a single combat.

Conversely a 2nd level character can't do as much, but the portion of his power that he can bring to bear in a single action is overwhelming when applied to a 1st level foe.


Need another quick example?

Let's take a +5 longsword. We can agree that this +5 longsword represents some finite amount of whupass, expressed as some chunk of a character's CR.

In whose hands is the +5 longsword the greater proportion of whup-ass-itude?

A 2nd level fighter vs. a typical 1st level foe?

A 16th level fighter vs. a typical 15th level foe?

In which combat is the outcome more dependent on any given d20 roll?

In which combat is the outcome less dependent on any given d20 roll?

Which combat is more resilient to random factors?