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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Garnfellow" data-source="post: 1207069" data-attributes="member: 1223">Well, on reflection I think CR 15 is probably too low. But here's how I came up with this number.I ran the CR calculations a few different ways. The hardest call is determining whether neither, one, or both of the prestige classes should be an associated class for a succubus. I find it easiest (and most accurate) to make the adjustment of the Utter Thrall ability at the very end of the CR process.If you assume that both classes are associated, you do indeed get CR 18 as Psion notes. If you assume neither are associated you get CR 8 (base succubus) + 2 (4 levels of non-associated Soul Eater) + 2 (first 4 levels of non-associated Fiend of Corruption) + 2 (for the 2 remaining levels of Fiend of Corruption -- once your non-associated class levels equal the original HD, it's one for one) = CR 14.My initial reaction was that neither number is very accurate: 14 is too low and 18 is too high. And here I primarily used a marilith (CR 17) as a gauge. Geraldine is clearly no marilith with half the hit points and the ability to do only a fraction of the damage per round.Which leads to an interesting question: what should be an associated class for a succubus? On one hand, she's an outsider, which traditionally falls into the "brute force" category of associated classes -- fighter and barbarian. But on the other hand, the description for a succubus clearly states "Succubi are not warriors. They flee combat whenever they can." Her monster type is in inherent conflict with her "monster concept."So if fighting classes are not associated,  what is? She has no spells, so none of the spellcasting classes are good candidates. Rogue? Maybe -- they share a lot of the same class skills, but she doesn't have any rogue abilities like sneak attack that could stack. Still, rogue seems like the best fit.So let's consider the prestige classes. Soul Eater is really just a fighting class that uses energy drain, so probably should be non-associated. My first thought on Fiend of Corruption was the same as Psion's -- this class is designed for fiends, right? But take a hard look at the class abilities -- while all very cool, they generally have only marginal combat utility. An argument could be made that these levels ought to be counted as non-associated levels, just like levels in an NPC class. But since we've already made Soul Eater levels non-associated, let's be conservative here and count Fiend of Corruption as associated.So let's see how these assumptions work: CR 8 (base succubus) + 2 (4 levels of non-associated Soul Eater) + 6 (6 associated levels of Fiend of Corruption) = CR 16. Better, clearly. I think we're in the ballpark here.So let's look at the Utter Thrall ability. I use FFG's Monster's Handbook for these types of calculations, and have found the results to be very accurate. Utter Thrall is a spell-like ability mimicking an 8th-level spell, used once per day. The Handbook suggests that this effect will have a relative impact on a monster's CR -- so that it will really help out a weaker monster, but will not be so helpful to more powerful ones.Using the Handbook's guidelines, adding this ability is like adding a separate CR 11 monster to the encounter. 1 CR 11 monster + 1 CR 16 monster = an EL 16 encounter, which would suggest no CR adjustment. But let's give her the benefit of the doubt and add in a +1 CR, taking her up to CR 17. Next to a marilith, does Geraldine really hold up?Not really -- but then again, Utter Thrall is a permanent, powerful ability. Do I really think this is worth a +0 CR adjustment? [Deep breath]Yeah -- for a CR 16 monster. In my experience, once you're above CR 14, additional abilities are very easy to overestimate. And remember, we started out with only a CR 7, out-of-the-box succubus. Any time you modify monsters so much that you've doubled their original CR, you really have to scrutinize your results.As an alternative exercise, I ran the numbers as if Geraldine were a single encounter that consisted of 1 CR 8 monster (her succubus HD), 1 CR 10 monster (her NPC levels), and 1 CR 11 monster (her Utter Thrall ability). The result (CR 13) was obviously too low.So at this point, I just rolled up my sleeves and did a qualitative analysis. I'm pretty confident that the magic number is somwhere above CR 14 and below CR 18. So I compared Geraldine to other 3.5 demons and devils (as well as some 15th, 16th, and 17th level NPC rogues and fighters) and ended up pushing her CR down to 15, thinking that in a stand-up fight two Geraldines would be about as nasty as 1 marilith. After sleeping on it, I now think I would probably move it back to CR 16, if only to account for the Utter Thrall ability. I'd certainly appreciate any other perspectives, though.</blockquote>

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