Advancing Monsters and Epic Level stuff.

[Kitsunekaboom]

When a monster is advanced beyond 20 hit dice does it start using epic level advancement?

Also thanks to all who answered an earlier question I had about how many creatures could ride what. It was very helpful but I never got back to saying thanks for it. ^_^*

 

[Anabstercorian]

I don't think there's an official ruling, but I recommend you go with Epic BAB/Saves after 20 HD. It makes for saner gaming.

 

[Patlin]

From the black dragon entry in the SRD:

Great wyrm G 37d12+296 (536) 37 10 27 20 21 20 +37/+62 +46 +28 +20 +25 24d4 (36) 33

37 HD = BAB 37, at least for a black dragon. That's not the epic progression for characters, not even fighters.

 

[Voadam]

Mostly no.

BAB and saves continue to progress for monster racial HD. Iterative attacks end after four however.

For an example see the titan, elder entry in the srd: 70 HD outsider with +70 BAB, not +20 as epic classes would end. He only has 4 iterative attacks still though.

TITAN,ELDER
Colossal Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 70d8+700 (1,015 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 150 ft.
AC: 58 (–8 size, +32 natural, +24 insight)
Base Attack/Grapple: +70/+104
Attack: Colossal +5 warhammer +87 (4d8+30/19–20 (+2d6 on critical hit)) melee; or Colossal +5 javelin +70 (2d10+22/19–20) ranged
Full Attack: Colossal +5 warhammer +87/+82/+77/+72 (4d8+30/19–20 (+2d6 on critical hit)) melee; or Colossal +5 javelin +70/+65/+60/+55 (2d10+22/19–20) ranged
Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: DR 20/epic, SR 40
Saves: Fort +47, Ref +37, Will +50
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 33, Wis 37, Cha 26
Skills: Concentration +83, Craft (any five) +45, Decipher Script +84, Diplomacy +45, Gather Information +87, Intimidate +56, Jump +90, Knowledge (all) +66, Listen +86, Sense Motive +86, Speak Language (any five), Spellcraft +90, Spot +86
Feats: Blind-Fight, Cleave, Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (warhammer), Improved Critical (javelin), Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Weapon Focus (warhammer), Weapon Focus (javelin)
Epic Feats: Automatic Silent Spell (0- through 9th level spells), Automatic Still Spell (0- through 9th level spells), Devastating Critical (warhammer), Epic Spellcasting, Epic Weapon Focus (warhammer), Epic Weapon Focus (javelin), Overwhelming Critical (warhammer), Polyglot
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 30
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 71–140 HD (Colossal)
An elder titan’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
COMBAT
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—alter self, analyze dweomer, commune with nature, cure critical wounds, eyebite, freedom of movement, fly, fog cloud, produce flame, protection from energy, read magic, remove curse, sanctuary, sending, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, speak with plants, summon monster VI, greater teleport, wind wall; 3/day—antilife shell, astral projection, contact other plane, greater dispel magic, greater scrying, invisibility purge, plane shift. Caster level 29th; save DC 18 + spell level. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Spells: An elder titan can use arcane spells as a 29th-level wizard or divine spells as a 29th-level cleric, from the cleric list and from the Knowledge and Magic domains. He will also possess the knowledge of at least three epic spells and the means by which to develop them, though he may not have done so himself.

 

[Voadam]

It sounds like you have to have 20 levels of character (not racial) class levels before you get epic progressions.

Epic characters—those whose character level is 21st or higher—are handled slightly differently from nonepic characters. While epic characters continue to receive most of the benefits of gaining levels, some benefits are replaced by alternative gains. A class can be advanced beyond 20th level. A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher. A class with fewer than ten levels cannot progress beyond the maximum for that class, regardless of character level.

Epic Save Bonus: A character’s base save bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all saving throws at every even-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base save bonus, use the sum of your base save bonus and epic save bonus.

Epic Attack Bonus: Similarly, the character’s base attack bonus does not increase after character level reaches 20th. However, the character does receive a cumulative +1 epic bonus on all attacks at every odd-numbered level beyond 20th, as shown on Table: Epic Save and Epic Attack Bonuses. Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

 

[Greybar]

Hmm... I'd recommend going with Epic rules after ECL20, actually.

The Tarrasque (for example) is 48HD but CR20. Would you expect that its stats are based on 20HD normal plus 28HD under epic rules?

Actually a better example is the Tyrannosaurus (CR8, 18HD). Since it's a simple brute, you really wouldn't want to start using epic rules once it hit 20HD (and maybe CR9 at best...)

And on the reverse side, a suped-up creature with low HD but high CR (like something piled with templates) shouldn't get the faster growth into the CR30s just because its hit dice are still in the teens.

Hmm... Maybe this is when Upper_Krust's CR system really starts to shine...

john

 

[Kitsunekaboom]

Thanks everybody.

 

[Bombshelter13]

Physical proof of a sort exists in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting.... there's a character, I think her name was something along the lines of Gerti Orelsdotter or something like that (don't have the book in front of me). She's a frost giant, with several levels of cleric and a few in the runecaster prestige class, for a total character level (classes + racial hit dice) in the mid twenties... and has twenty hit dice, total. All her levels beyond twenty were considered epic.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Any class levels gained after the first 20 Hit Dice (racial or otherwise) grant epic attack/epic saves.

30 HD outsider: +30 BA, +0 EA
human Ftr30: +20 BA, +5 EA
30 HD outsider Ftr30: +30 BA, +15 EA (not +50 BA, +5 EA)