Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Advantage/Disadvantage - Common or Special?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6715185" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>They could, but they'd be very silly to do so, mathematically speaking.</p><p></p><p>4 attacks, assuming even <em>remotely</em> equal hit bonuses, has almost exactly the same chance of total failure (0 hits) or near-total failure (1 hit), but can have 3 or even 4 attacks land, when 2-with-advantage cannot. 2-with-advantage is certainly more likely to get at least one crit, possibly two...but, due to static damage bonuses (from Dex or Str, possibly magic weapon) two crits is <em>still</em> lower than 4-attacks-without-advantage. Only by heavily stacking on two people with substantially superior damage dice (e.g. greatsword, since it's 2d6) can you get a better average result. I suppose if you have multiple Paladins that only drop Smites on a crit, but that smacks of intentionally optimizing for it, rather than a couple of people in the party deciding to do something because it's flavorful, not because it's useful.</p><p></p><p>[sblock=Math, for those who care]Assuming, say, a 60% hit chance, the expected value of four attacks is 4*.55*(average damage roll+static value)+4*.05*(2*average dam roll+static value), to account for crits. Most people are going to use a d6 or d8 weapon, so we'll go with the latter. And most people should have at least +2 to damage from their base stats (assuming a slightly low value to be conservative: it reduces the impact of the static part). So 4*.55*(4.5+2)+4*.05*(9+2) = 16.5 expected damage per round. For two attacks with advantage, an initial 60% hit chance becomes an 84%, with a 9.75% chance to crit, so the formula becomes 2*.7425*(4.5+2)+2*.0975*(9+2) = 11.7975, about a 30% loss in damage. If we compensate by switching two of the attacks to 2d6 (average 7) and a +3 static bonus, it looks like:</p><p>4 Without: 2*.55*(4.5+2)+2*.05*(9+2)+2*.55*(7+3)+2*.05*(14+3) = 20.95</p><p>2 With: 2*.7425*(7+3)+2*.0975*(14+3) = 18.165</p><p></p><p>The gap narrows, but only slightly. Only by having a substantial difference in damage values (e.g. Battlemaster maneuver, Paladin Smite, maybe Barb Rage) can you even get it up to parity. I'll also note that, while the 60% hit rate was chosen more or less at random, the effect is pretty solid unless it's almost impossible to hit the target....which, as I understand it, isn't really <em>supposed</em> to happen in 5e because of "Bounded Accuracy."[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>Everyone attacking without advantage is, in the main, superior to half the group attacking with it. You just don't get enough bang for your buck. And since it's only the <em>next</em> attack roll, rather than the next Attack Action, many classes actually lose multiple attacks to do it (particularly Fighters) while only generating 1 roll's worth of advantage.</p><p></p><p>It's kind of a neat idea, and it has its place, but surely there are better ways to try to help an ally. Finding some way to even <em>potentially</em> inflict Disadvantage on enemy attacks, for example; even if it only works 50% of the time, that can be enough to make most high-AC characters effectively unhittable,</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 6715185, member: 6790260"] They could, but they'd be very silly to do so, mathematically speaking. 4 attacks, assuming even [I]remotely[/I] equal hit bonuses, has almost exactly the same chance of total failure (0 hits) or near-total failure (1 hit), but can have 3 or even 4 attacks land, when 2-with-advantage cannot. 2-with-advantage is certainly more likely to get at least one crit, possibly two...but, due to static damage bonuses (from Dex or Str, possibly magic weapon) two crits is [I]still[/I] lower than 4-attacks-without-advantage. Only by heavily stacking on two people with substantially superior damage dice (e.g. greatsword, since it's 2d6) can you get a better average result. I suppose if you have multiple Paladins that only drop Smites on a crit, but that smacks of intentionally optimizing for it, rather than a couple of people in the party deciding to do something because it's flavorful, not because it's useful. [sblock=Math, for those who care]Assuming, say, a 60% hit chance, the expected value of four attacks is 4*.55*(average damage roll+static value)+4*.05*(2*average dam roll+static value), to account for crits. Most people are going to use a d6 or d8 weapon, so we'll go with the latter. And most people should have at least +2 to damage from their base stats (assuming a slightly low value to be conservative: it reduces the impact of the static part). So 4*.55*(4.5+2)+4*.05*(9+2) = 16.5 expected damage per round. For two attacks with advantage, an initial 60% hit chance becomes an 84%, with a 9.75% chance to crit, so the formula becomes 2*.7425*(4.5+2)+2*.0975*(9+2) = 11.7975, about a 30% loss in damage. If we compensate by switching two of the attacks to 2d6 (average 7) and a +3 static bonus, it looks like: 4 Without: 2*.55*(4.5+2)+2*.05*(9+2)+2*.55*(7+3)+2*.05*(14+3) = 20.95 2 With: 2*.7425*(7+3)+2*.0975*(14+3) = 18.165 The gap narrows, but only slightly. Only by having a substantial difference in damage values (e.g. Battlemaster maneuver, Paladin Smite, maybe Barb Rage) can you even get it up to parity. I'll also note that, while the 60% hit rate was chosen more or less at random, the effect is pretty solid unless it's almost impossible to hit the target....which, as I understand it, isn't really [I]supposed[/I] to happen in 5e because of "Bounded Accuracy."[/sblock] Everyone attacking without advantage is, in the main, superior to half the group attacking with it. You just don't get enough bang for your buck. And since it's only the [I]next[/I] attack roll, rather than the next Attack Action, many classes actually lose multiple attacks to do it (particularly Fighters) while only generating 1 roll's worth of advantage. It's kind of a neat idea, and it has its place, but surely there are better ways to try to help an ally. Finding some way to even [I]potentially[/I] inflict Disadvantage on enemy attacks, for example; even if it only works 50% of the time, that can be enough to make most high-AC characters effectively unhittable, [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Advantage/Disadvantage - Common or Special?
Top