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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AaronOfBarbaria" data-source="post: 6715790" data-attributes="member: 6701872">Elaboration in full is too much of a derail for the thread, but yes, I really do believe that what most people refer to when they use the term "metagaming" doesn't actually exist (at least, it doesn't exist until you invent it so that you can do it in order to avoid it).As for player knowledge and character knowledge... I'll say that I believe any knowledge the character could possibly have learned in the "back story" portion of their life is up to the player to decide if the character learned it or not, that any knowledge the character couldn't possibly have learned or guessed at being used is playing in bad faith (cheating, in a fashion), and that people often get far too concerned with trying to claim that something which could fall in the first category should fall into the second category instead, and create situations in which metagaming becomes mandatory in order to avoid metagaming.As an example, because I'm sure this is confusing: Say there is a character, and that character is at camp near a campfire. A monster attacks the camp, and this character responds by shoving the monster into the fire.I say that is perfectly fine no matter what kind of character that is, how often they have used similar tactics before, or how much knowledge about what that monster is the character has - it is simply an idea that could be arrived upon in the circumstances at hand.Others would start to question things, is that monster vulnerable to fire? If so, does the player know that? Does it matter if the player knows or not? Does it matter if the character knows?I've had people tell me that because I am a long-time DM and would definitely recognize that this creature is a troll, because of course it is a troll to make the example relevant, I can't try to shove it in the fire without first jumping through some hoop (sometimes it is actually making up the back-story detail as to why the character knows, other times it is passing a check at some arbitrary DC the DM set), because if I do that then it is "metagaming" because I have acted in a way that my player knowledge knows is good but maybe my character doesn't know that it would be good.I've had the same people tell me that if a brand new player that didn't know anything about the game reacting to the same monster with the same action of shoving it into the fire would be perfectly acceptable.You catch that? How my player knowledge, which it is "metagaming" to use as a basis for determining my character's thoughts actions, determines that my character can't think and act in the same way an unknowledgeable player could, thus forcing "metagaming" into existence, and doing it, in order to "avoid it."</blockquote>

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